2.08 A Conversation with Julian Lazarus
This week Jimmy talks with middle school teacher Julian Lazarus in Montgomery County Maryland! He has taught for 18 years at various levels and brings a great perspective on theatre education as a whole! Specific topics he talks about are process over product, feeling trapped by our choices, and tech theatre tips and tricks!
Julian’s Recommended Resources
A Challenge for the Actor by Uta Hagen
Structuring Drama Work: 100 Key Conventions for Theatre and Drama by Jonothan Neelands and Tony Goode
Drama Menu: Theatre Games in 3 Courses by Glyn Trefor-Jones
Speaker 1:
[inaudible] .
Speaker 2:
This is season two, episode eight of fed talks. I'm Jimmy Chrisman , your host of the podcast. Each week I bring you stories and interviews from experience K-12 theater teachers, current theater education majors and professors of theater education that will hopefully warm your heart, renew your faith in teaching and provide resources to better your practice in your theater classroom. Thank you so much for checking out this week's episode of the show. I'm really excited to bring this interview to you. It is with Julian Lazarus .
Speaker 3:
He is a middle school theater teacher who has kind of done it all. Uh , but currently he is teaching at loiter middle school. It's an arts magnet in Montgomery County, Maryland. And he had quite a bit to say on , um, the focus of process over product , um , feeling trapped by our choices and uh , also providing some tech liter tips and tricks for all of us out there. This is the final installment of the tech theater unit. So I hope you've gotten a lot out of that. And I've had some valuable resources that you can put into practice right away in your classrooms. But Julian offers some great things for us in terms of those resources as well as a fresh lens to kind of look at what we're doing in our theater classes. So , um, I know he is currently , uh, in the throws of his dissertation work. Uh, we've been in touch since the interview back in June. Um, and uh, here we are in October now and I, I know he is been full steam ahead with that. So I, I wish him well and I hope he's doing well. So we're gonna jump right
Speaker 2:
into the interview with Julian . I hope you enjoy it. If you get a lot of it . I'm excited to welcome Julianne Lazarus to Ted talks for this episode. He has
Speaker 3:
taught for a very long time , uh, and uh , just left Lincoln or high school and we'll be starting at Lloyd mid middle school . It's an arts magnet in Montgomery County, Maryland. So welcome to the show. Uh , Julian, if you want to introduce yourself, kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and , uh, kind of what brought you to where you are in your journey with your
Speaker 4:
career. Sure. So thanks for having me on. Um, I have been teaching , uh , theater for about 18 years now. I've worked in theater for about 25, five. Um, I like to say that I'm kind of a reluctant drama teacher in the respect that it wasn't my first choice, but it has been a really wonderful life. Um, and I've gotten to work with amazing people and have really fantastic experiences. So , um, you know, I did my undergrad at Marymount Manhattan in New York, and that is where I picked up my education in minor and I got to student teach at Trinity prep on the upper West side, which was an amazing experience. And I gained a lot of weight there because the lunch ladies were wonderful and they knew I was a poor college kid and they always gave me dinner before I left. And that was, that was really wonderful of them. Um, but I had the opportunity to work all over New York and in all kinds of theaters and really learn about professional theater and that, that definitely shaped my approach to the classroom. And it's when I picked up an internship at today's children's theater is when I really started loving working with kids in the theater. And after I graduated, I came back to Baltimore where I had family and started picking up some jobs at every man theater and the center stage and a couple other professional theaters on that. And um, then I met my wife who was a teacher and I said, Hey, I have a teaching degree and may as well use it and get on the same schedule as her. And that's how I, I got back into the classroom. And so I started at a school , uh , in Howard County and I was there for three years. Um, then, and that was, that was definitely a learning experience. That's when I started , that's when I decided to do my masters at NYU. They have a three summer program for educational theater. And that is really where I learned how to teach theater and put, connect all of those dots that I learned about professional theater and how to share that with kids. And that was truly one of my favorite experiences of , uh, in theater is going to that NYU program. And I got really involved with the American Alliance for theater and education and I became the Maryland state rep for awhile . Um, and then I left that school and I went over to a community college for a little while , uh , for about two years where I oversaw the theater and I taught classes. And then I ended up at Lincoln or high school for over a decade. And I really loved that job. I loved the people I was working with. I learned , I love the kids. The community was so supportive and wonderful. And um, and now I'm getting ready to start a new adventure at an arts magnet school in Montgomery County. So that kind of brings us up to the present. And then all of that, I've started my doctorate and had kids and had lot , had a life well with, with such a vast experience at , at really the different levels
Speaker 3:
K through college. Um, talk to me a little bit about what you find as the , the commonalities between your students from all the different levels as well as maybe some of the differences. I know there's tons of differences but maybe just pick a couple that you would you really kind of notice. Sure. So
Speaker 4:
Hmm . A big commonality between all of the kids is a love for telling stories and storytelling. I I've always found that it doesn't matter the level those elements of storytelling are, are there and especially when you're in educational theater. Um, David Wood wrote a fantastic book on children's theater that gives all of these elements, I think its 25 elements of children's theater and I have found that it doesn't matter K through college if you start adding in some of these elements of the stories and working through stories , um, kids always love that and it really doesn't even matter what level it is. You know as you go up the subject matter can change. And I was able to do things at the high school that I would never do with my middle school kids and um, so on and so forth. And even working at like summer camps, I do a lot of summer camp work and then you get the elementary kids, you know, they , it's, it's all the storytelling, all those different elements. You have really great suddenlies which is a big David Wood thing. Um, the kids love that and I think that that , um, my favorite is , is really kind of showing them how to create the skills in order to tell those stories. And that's always been a big thing of mine is, is we're working on working on process over product. And that was something I picked up when I was at grant , at grad school at NYU.
Speaker 3:
As I was reading back through our , our initial emails. You , you mentioned , uh, you, you were a cofounder of the hostel youth program. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that was?
Speaker 4:
Sure. The hostel youth program is , is fantastic. It's a teen theater immersion program at the contemporary American theater festival, which is held every summer at a shepherd university in Shepard , West Virginia. Um, and it's really one of the most amazing elite theater festivals in the country. The curators. Um, ed and Peggy just do such an amazing job finding, just fascinating plays. It's one of the things that I look forward to every year to recharge myself as, as a drama teacher. Cause all that work is, is, is so cutting edge and , and so brilliant. And so the hostel program was an idea that I presented them with , uh , to bring kids in and have firsthand experiences. And , and so what happens is they come to shepherd university and they live in the dorms for about three days and eight in that time they're able to see all of the shows in the, in the festival, which is about six shows. Then they get to go to a meeting for whatever show was being worked on and, and has been written and commissioned for the upcoming festival year. And then on top of that, they have about 18 workshops with just amazing people. And a lot of the times they're performers and artists who are working with the festival that year that come and facilitate the workshops on everything from design, backstage playwriting. Um, a few years ago the playwriting workshop leader was John Adams. And then about two weeks later she won the Pulitzer prize for drama. So that was a pretty amazing experience. Um, you know, they, they would get acting technique and directing technique and they really get to see all of the different elements that go into not only creating the shows, but also putting the festival together. And I mean, some of the original hostile youth kids have turned around and ended up working at the festival later in their years. They'd gone to shepherd university and they became, you know, ambassadors for the program, which are the students that lead the other kids around during, during those three days. They usually do two programs of it throughout the summer. Um, it's really wasn't just a fantastic program that came together. Um, and then , uh, Theresa Davis , who's a hemp hip hop theater instructor, she's the one that kind of directs everything. And she is just, she's just a ball of light. She's wonderful. I've actually stolen a couple ideas that I use in my classroom for her cause she is, she is really fantastic. Um, so the hostel youth program is, it's an example of , of something that I do that isn't necessarily healthy as a drama teacher and the respect that I think big and, and I have big ideas and they don't necessarily fit in the school and the program that I'm working in. And sometimes I distract myself by chasing after those bigger ideas that sometimes end really well with the hostile youth. And it works out and sometimes it, it crashes pretty terribly. So , um, but my wife is very understanding and, and uh, and we, we move a lot . I , uh, when I was, when I was still in the classroom, I, I decided that I
Speaker 3:
wanted to start my own theater company in the community that I was in. I was, I was, I was tired of the way some of the things were run and I wanted to run them in what I thought was the correct way. So I did, I started my own nonprofit theater. And , um, I think I very quickly burnt at both ends. Um, I was very proud of what we did, but , um, it , it , it did, it exhausted me cause on in the middle of all that, and in the middle of teaching, I start , I also started my doc program and , um, it just, there was way too much on my plate and something had to go. And , um, I think the universe had a really nice way of saying that I have to stop doing something. Um, and , uh, so we lost our performance space, which I was like, okay, that's my clue to, I need to take a step back from something and really focus on a what's paying my bills and this other thing that I'm really working hard on. So , uh, so I, I totally get that biting off a lot and , and hopefully something really strong is gonna come from it.
Speaker 4:
Um , yes, I know that story. Right .
Speaker 3:
Um, what , uh, you, you also talked to me in your emails about , uh, approaching teaching from a different standpoint than a lot of what my guests , uh , have talked about on this show and, and some of them have, have, have kind of taken the approach that you've , you've taken with , uh , a mini professional theater company in your, in your school .
Speaker 4:
Yeah . So first, you know, listening to all of the other guests that you had , I have just been so floored by the amazing teachers that are out there, that have been working with the kids and , and their passion and their ingenuity. And it's, it's really been really wonderful to hear just on the respect that as a drama teacher, you know, you're usually an Island amongst yourself. You're BI , you're out there, you're, you're, you're fighting for your program, you're working hard, you know, only the band director and the custodians are understand the hours that you're putting on and putting into the building. Um, and so that's, that's been really wonderful and, and it was really nice to hear some of the other drama teachers out there who are using that same kind of approach of a professional , uh, idea. And so one of my big things is the idea of , of process over product. I'm not a big fan of putting kids on stage and shining them and making them look good without them knowing what it is they're doing and why. And I think that's one of the reasons I've been really successful as a drama teacher or because of one you have really high expectations, but to one of the best pieces of advice I ever got I ever got was the idea of if this was the first time you were ever learning it, what would you need to know? And that's been refined for me the years as I, as I work with more and more students. Um, that's the approach that I usually take. And with that I add on to the idea of, of it should be project based. So I do a lot of work with arts integration and , and with the idea that all arts integration properly done is project based. So pretty much everything that my students do is hands on and we break it down and we talk about why it's that way, what's the history behind it and, and what's the purpose of doing things a certain way. And, and for my high school program where when I was at laying in our high , we created a mission statement , um, and just like you would do at a company, and I created a shared set of beliefs with the students. Um, we had in our mission statement, the words literally said something along the lines of this is a professional youth theater company that happens to be located at a high school. And as a , we demand the highest quality sets, lights , acting, you know, PR , uh, dedication on and on and on along that, along those lines, I don't have it memorized. And in front of me , uh, we had a quote that we always worked off of, which was, it's not the critic who counts by theater, Roosevelt. And so that quote was on a banner in the classroom and it part of the pre show cheers. We always recited the quote, it was on the back of our, our department tee shirts. Um, and then even how I went about teaching acting was all skill-based . And so I really would set all of the actors and all of the students up with UDA Hoggin. Um, and so I really love the hog and especially for 14 and 15 and 16 year olds because it's systematic, it's, it's scaffold. There is a set of skills that are learned on each level that build off of each other. And then not only would we do that, but it was a peer critique every single performance. And that allowed the students to not only learn the vocabulary of how to talk about things and how to preteach things, but it created a shared vocabulary in the classroom. So then we would turn around and put that onto a main stage. And it almost became a laboratory setting where the main stage was a byproduct of all of the good learning that we did in the classroom. And the kids really grew from that because then they knew how to talk about it with each other. They knew what a productive critique he looked like and sounded like. And then the big thing was every, that was part of the class . The program had to be on tech crew because it wasn't good enough to just no acting technique. You had to know how sets went together, how lights worked, how the sound system works . Because those are all paint brushes in your palette of creating this universe on stage. And if you don't know how part of that works, you can't be the best performer or even crew member that you could possibly be. And so from there, some kids, you know, there were the natural split, some kids became techies and we had probably 40 to 50 techies on every show that ended up running everything. And then some, some students went over to the at , you know, more acting and performing. And that was, that created a wonderful community and they were all very supportive of each other. You know, I'm, I know I made mistakes along the way, but we , we created a family, we, and that's, and that's what it was. And that's what I think it should be.
Speaker 3:
One of the things , uh, that you have, you said to me , um, in your email was that you were , you were frustrated and felt trapped by your choices at times. And I, that line in particular stuck out to me because I can remember feeling that way as well. And I know you and I are not the only drama teachers who have felt that way. So talk a little bit more about what you meant by that and, and kind of how that played into kind of your career in shaping who you are now. Short. So, so
Speaker 4:
sometimes I feel like, you know, I just didn't make good choices in accepting different jobs , um, or taking on too many different projects. Um , even when I started my doctorate, I had to, to make a decision on, on scheduling rehearsals and how much of the show I was going to do and how much I had to ask other adults in the program to take on. Um, so I, you know, I've made tough choices and sometimes I didn't always make the right choices , um, for either myself or my program where I would either overextend myself or my program would get short shrift. And then I'd feel guilty about that. You know, the , the , the teacher guilt that you get. And , um, sometimes, you know, I didn't do all of the necessary work that I should have done and I tasked something poorly and then I'm a month in and I can't fix it because then I would cause even more havoc, you know, than I already had. So you had to make the best of, of the situation and try to do right by those kids who trust you and love you and respect you, and you are a big part of their lives and you have a responsibility to them and you work hard to make the best choices you can. But there isn't a manual to this. There isn't. You know, it's like being a parent. You know, you , you do the best you can at the time you're there and you learn from your mistakes and you try not to repeat them. Um, so it's, it's a hard life, you know, and, and I think that people don't always understand how hard it really can be, especially when you say, Oh, I'm the drama teacher. And they say, Oh, what games do you play? And you say, no, no, no. I have a curriculum that I work. I do. I'm, I'm working towards goals. Yes, I can teach through games and play lots of games because my job is awesome that way. But there really is a method to the madness. And so , um, you know, that creates really wonderful moments and that creates sometimes really tough moments. I remember I was doing [inaudible] at all lists with my kids, which is just a beautiful play. And it was one of , it was really one of those players that we had done enough like Disney musicals and that kind of thing to make some money. And so it was a play that I wanted to do and I had a fantastic translation that we are using and it was set like 19, late, late 1930s , um, almost as if it was like pre-rolled war too . And I had the chorus of girls and I had asked them at one rehearsal to , uh, start crying, you know, with the idea that EFA Jiniah or FEA neon , depending on which translation you want . Um, it was going off to sacrifice herself. And they were so mad at me because they sat on stage for like an hour and a half crying and it was definitely the wrong choice. And so I, I brought them chocolates the next day and I apologized and I was like, I will never make you do that again. I'm so sorry. But , um, and, and, and we moved on and it was a really great play. But , uh, you know, you live, you learn, you're trying to try things. That's for sure.
Speaker 3:
In my research for my dissertation, one of the, I , uh , my study was about , um, defining the traits of effective theater teachers , um, for purposes of teacher evaluations. And in my research , uh, one of the common themes that came up was the effect of drama teachers are a Jack of all trades and I, which is no surprise to those of us who are, who are doing it, that we , we, we are typically a one man show or a one woman show and, and we , we have to, we have to do all the things. Um, in addition to that, you have also taught dance. Um, can you talk to me about that experience and then , um, kind of how that works into what you do as a, as a theater teacher? Okay, sure. Um, well you put me on the spot. So , um,
Speaker 4:
when I got the job at Lincoln art, it was actually half drama and half dance. And so my undergrad at Marymount , um, you know, that's, that's an art school and there is a very large dance program there are. And I was very happy to go and work with the beautiful dancers and lift them and, and help out , uh, in the dance program when I was in undergrad. And so they said, you know, well, you'd have to teach dance. How are you going to do that? And I said, well, I guess I'm going to go take some dance classes. And so that summer and into the fall, I proceeded to go and take ballet and jazz and tap and get a solid foundation on what it was I was doing. So, so it's more accurate to say I facilitated Ganz other than teaching dance, to be completely honest. Um, but the girls were just so wonderful. And what happened was I actually have a directing degree. And what I was able to do is once I learned how to map out a song and I took all of the choreography techniques and I was able to kind of parallel those up to directing techniques, and then it was almost in my brain, I was able to say, okay, I'm directing this dance and these are my elements that I can use. I can go to chaos, I can go to union unity. I can, you know, create a chorus of movement. I can , um , have all of these different elements in this dance. Then I was able to , um, choreograph dances. I also then went and I gave the girls a lot of latitude because I found that in their studio programs. And most of my girls that were in the dance programs, what they were in studio programs around town. And we have some really fantastic ones here in Frederick, Maryland. Um, they usually didn't get the chance to choreograph. So after we went over and learned how to map a song, all the different elements of choreography, they were able to go and take a lot of the techniques that they did learn in their , in their dance studios and then structure it and create dances based on that. So I leaned heavily on my drama background in order to be able to facilitate and teach dances. And it , it did make directing musicals, which is not my forte. I'm much, much easier, you know, in the respect that I was able to listen to the digital tracks from, from what is it, empty pit, pit, whatever that that is that comes along with it and, and look at the music and count the measures and figure out how much time I had . So that made that much easier and definitely added a tool to my Jack of all trades that I, that I , uh, did not have before. But at the same time I was also very happy to have a student choreographer or bring in a choreographer to help put those big dances together. So, like when we did the music man, I was definitely able to put the Virginia reel together and, and um, every now and then even sitting in my car , um, you know, I'll hear a song, I'd be like, Ooh, that was like a really good dance. Uh, so you know, that that definitely opened up a new world for me inside of, of working with students and directing kids. I would not say that I'm really good at it cause honestly tech theater is, is my bread and butter. But I feel pretty comfortable that if I had to , you know, put together a piece in a, in a musical, I could, I could make it happen. It might not be pretty at first, but I think I can make it make it work.
Speaker 3:
Uh, well, speaking of the tech theater, can you and I , uh, that's where we met each other was through a tech theater, Facebook group. Um, do you have any , uh , tech theater tips and tricks for those of us who are nontechnical theater people that maybe something we should have in our toolbox or our back pocket they use?
Speaker 4:
Oh yes . So, so I definitely think , um, I definitely think that drama teachers need to have a strong tech background. Um, and there's nothing wrong with what I'm about to say. It's just not how I like to roll. Like I love parent help, but I, I'm never a big fan of having, you know, the parents just come in and, and take over tech because there's a method to it and I'm not building for the next 40 years. That deck isn't gonna live on the back of my house. Um, it needs to come down in a month. And so I don't need four by four studs bolted into the stage or any of that kind of thing. Um, and so I think there's a very specific way to go about building, especially for a high school program. And my thoughts on that have always been the idea of having a stock of stock scenery that you can , um, use multiple times until it dies. So the, you know, flats and risers and, and ramps and stairs, cases and things like that. Then based off of that , um , building specialty pieces for each, each scene. So, I mean, we built some really amazing stats and I'll definitely give you some resources in a second. But like one of the sets that, a couple of sets that I was always really proud of working with the kids , um, on music man, when the, at the very beginning of the show before rock Island, the curtains opened and there was a full size steam locomotive facing the audience with the lights pouring into the, into the house and steam billowing it, and then the entire thing split open and that you were inside of the car of the train car with the kids already in it. And the music started and you were at right into rock Island. And that was, that was a really cool effect. Uh, we built another one for anything goes and on the ship. And then the ship had four curved staircases that you could change the positions of and it became a grand central staircase. It became two turning staircases off the sun hide . Um, our Seussical set was pretty fantastic with extending staircases that came in and out up to different risers. Um, whenever you work with risers, you gotta be really careful with handrails . I've had, I've had enough close calls with kids not paying attention to the edges. You got to watch that. Um, but we, I mean, we built some really fantastic sets. Um, you know, my brain goes there just as a , as somebody , I mean I paid my way through college as, as a , as a shop foreman and a tech person. So that was one of the reasons I got in so many theaters in New York is as I was always back there hanging lights and building sets and doing a lot of that. But as far as some resources from that , um, you know, I think any drama teachers should have a solid idea of how to use some power tools. And a couple of books that I've always really liked is self reporting scenery for children's theater. I printed it out for you there , um, because that just gives you a really great example of how to put some things together. I know that a lot of drama teachers don't always put on put risers up. Um, you know, so everything's on the deck and flat, but that's a really nice way to create some things , uh , with , with some good stage jacks that allow you to do that. Um, the other thing that I always liked for tech that I always tell drama teachers about is this book backstage forms by , I don't really know by Paul Carter and what this does, it's just templates that are eight by eight and a half by 11 that you can print out and it allows you to get all of your backstage paperwork together. And so kids know exactly where they're going and what they're doing. And if you are like me and your main goal is to be able to not lift a finger by the time grouping night comes around, then it's good to keep as much organized as possible. I always thought that was, that was the Mark of a , a really solid program as if the kids owned it. You know, and, and, and I'm, I'm known for never going onstage for tobacco. I, I've told my kids for many years, do not bring me flowers. My gift is you doing the best you can do. And what I would do once the show started is I would do circles. I would just kind of do rounds between backstage and up to the booth and , and checking, just checking on things because I had students as stage managers, students running sound lights, special effects, you know, they were on headsets down to the wings. We had kids on spotlights sparingly. Um, we had, we had run crew , uh, people out in the hall calling, you know, doing calls for actors, making sure they weren't missing their cues . Um, and they ran it and they were amazing and it was, it was really fun to watch them get to that point.
Speaker 3:
I think you and I are very similar in, in that with, with how we run our productions. Um, what would be your advice to those teachers who are, are a bit of control freaks and don't want to let go and let their students do that? What would be , uh , your advice for, for teachers like that? Who would like to maybe try to transition into that?
Speaker 4:
It's hard. It is [inaudible] it is. I am, I am also a bit of a control freak and my wife would definitely say that I'm a good of a know it all as well. Um, I think that the first couple of times I did it, I started with just a couple positions at a time where it was, I need to trust you that you can use these tools. And we'd go from there. Okay, I'm going to T take my most senior caves. You are wing head, what do you mean? I'm a wing head and when I have to explain what all of that is and I just started, I kept building it up and building it up . But um, you know, and, and, and the worst case that happens and something goes wrong. Well that's a learning experience. And you know, in my, in my program we would produce, you know, we'd go from page to stage, we would produce a show every single year and sometimes those kids fell on their face. And you learn from that, you know, it, you know, it's, it's like the book, the blessing of the skin , knee . You have to allow them to make their way through that. And sometimes they will crash and burn and sometimes they will amaze you with how quick and how, and how much ingenuity they, they have. And they come up with this solutions. And isn't that what we're doing as a teacher anyway? It's an educational experience. If I have to stop a show in the middle of, of a performance because something isn't safe or because something just went wrong, I have to trust them . My audience will understand that. My main goal is to teach the children and keep them safe. And I think that when you approach it from that mentality,
Speaker 5:
[inaudible]
Speaker 4:
you're, you're okay . You're, you're going to do just fine. You're not going to have to worry about, you know, little Susie's mom is going to get upset. Nope. I kept little Susie from walking off the front of the stage in a blackout and we'll keep, we'll move on, you know? Um, and I think that that's, that's really important. If you take from that perspective, I mean we've had, I absolutely have had this doubt shows in the middle of a performance and we move on from there. We were using an electronic head one year for curtains and it just went out like it blanked right before a song and you had to turn it off and reload it. So I have a stage full of kids, it probably must've been 50 kids on stage getting ready for this song. And it goes out and I'm in the booth and I looked down to where, you know, down into the pit where the girl was running it. And she looked at me with big saucer eyes and I went down and as I went down , uh , to start doing that, I looked, I got to the pit and I looked up at my lead and I just kind of mouthed go on and I put my hands up and did the kind of like the rock, the rock concert clapping and got the tempo and the kids did the whole song and dance acapella. Wow. While we reset the music and the audience went out of their mind , what a great first of all, what a great moment I was at. I was ecstatic. But you know what a great learning moment of, you know, when things go bad and you got to make the best of it, you got to go and, and, and learn from it. And they totally Rose to the occasion that day. And it was just so amazing to see how proud they were of that particular moment. And I mean that kind of became, you know , uh , a story, you know, fame and, and Lauren in the school. But it was, it was such an amazing home-ec to , to let those kids. So if you are out there and you are worried about letting the kids crash and burn, just do it. You go and, and believe in your , your students. If you are teaching them, you know how to, how things actually work, that's part of the gig. Let them do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well what are you most looking forward to in? Not that you've not enjoyed what you've done for the last 10 years. At the high school, but what are you most looking forward to as you moved to the middle school next year?
Speaker 4:
Um , well I, I have worked with, with middle school kids , um , before I'm really excited about the fact that for the first time I get to be in a team of drama teachers. You said it because it's an arts magnet school. I'm, I'm one third of the, the drama teaching staff and, and I'm really excited to share , um, my experience and my knowledge of theater with these other very experienced, very smart , uh , teachers. Um, you know, I know that one of them has, has the same kind of back ground as I do in a respect of , she was a high school teacher and now she's moved to, she moved to the middle school a while ago. And, and I think that's really wonderful to get a chance to not be alone Wolf , you know, the first time in a very long time. Um, you know, I'm , I'm , I'm looking forward to being able to work with those students that have gone out of their way to go to an arts magnet school. Um, and, and explore that and seeing how I can modify some of the, some of the lessons and the things that I've created as far as like, you know, I do a lot of puppetry with the students. I do a lot of, you know, some mask work with the students, a lot of tech stuff with the students. Um, see how I can translate a lot of those lessons to the middle school level. I think that's going to be a really interesting experience in the , in that respect. So we'll see what we can do with all of that. And also they're , they getting ready to build a brand new theater, so that's going to be a whole new adventure on top of everything else as well. So
Speaker 3:
that'll be exciting. What I'm and I , I know you are, you are and have been involved with um, AATE for a while . Um, talk to me about what, because I'm assuming you believe that teachers should be involved in professional organizations. Um, what , uh , what, talk to us about your involvement with AATE and , uh, what, what we as theater teachers can, can do and should be doing with that.
Speaker 4:
So the American Alliance with theater and education is, is a fantastic program. Um, I got involved during my time, New York university because , um , ed theater community is not a big community entity as, as, as you , you know, and , um, it was so wonderful to go in and find people who speak my language and understand what I'm talking about, which is one of the reasons I love this podcast so much because I said, okay, I think about those things and that's exactly how I feel about a lot of these things. So , um, we inside of a T E there are several Frank communities, depending on what it is you're interested in, what level you work at, that you can become involved in. Um, and they have online networks that you can be in touch with those, with different people who are doing the same kinds of things that you're doing. Um, but I think the thing that I loved the most were the , uh, the national conferences, you know, every summer. And that is just such an amazing way to recharge your, your, your batteries . So , um , I've not only participated in them, but I've also presented at those conferences several times over the years. I'm on different subjects from, you know, developing plays to , um, to, to tech theater stuff, you know, the proper ways to build flats. And Verizon is to , um, ag . I did a bunch of work during my masters on applied theater. I presented, you know, structure to applied theater there. Um, I think that it's, it's such a nice community , uh, on the national level that really opens you up to ideas what other people are doing. You leave there with lots of new knowledge every summer. Um, and then locally, I think it's important to be outside of your building as well. So I'm, I'm on the board for the Maryland theater education association. So MTV a , um, you know, I'm, I'm the vice president for programming and that, and so we are working hard to create , uh , things from Maryland theater teachers as far as professional development. Um, you know, we, we do a lot of work with that. We work with the Maryland state board of ed to create , um, create a credit classes that they, that they can do because a lot of times there isn't much for drama teachers. When you look at what's usually offered, you know, we've been working with the university of Maryland to create what's called the thrive conference in February and it's a mini one day a conference where theater teachers can get together and , uh, learn some new skills work on, you know, we had a really fantastic process drama and , uh , workshops this past February. Uh , those were really great. They also, we did a big workshop on , um, on , um, creating costuming and sets with found objects. And that was really cool actually. I , I dug that a lot. I was, I was having a lot of fun on that one. Um, so I think it's really important that you're part of the bigger community. And it's hard to do sometimes because, you know, being a drama teacher, you'll get swallowed up in time. You know, you'll, you get very busy in what you're doing. You know, you become, know your, your, your spouse becomes a show widow for two months or two to three months, twice a year. And yeah, it's, it's hard to find that balance. I've heard a lot of your, your guests talking about that balance, which is something that took me a really long time to, to get right. And even when I had small, my children were really small. We, you know, I, that balance was still so difficult. You know, my kids grew up in rehearsal, eh, you know, they , they were in rehearsals a lot. And when my oldest was four or five, he knew the entire soundtrack, the Seussical cause that was a show we were doing. And he would recreate it with his stuffed animals in the living room. And he knew the whole plot and all the characters, you know, what was going on. So that, that's hard. Yeah. That that balance is difficult when you're trying to be part of outside groups because not only is it good for you, it's good for your students too. And by doing that, all of those different things. I was able to work with Towson university with their teaching artists program and we went and we were able to bring student teaching artists in and they would do a pre-show class with this with my students. Then we would go and see a show at Towson that they had , we were working on, and then they would do a post show , um , class with my students. And it was such a fantastic experience for everyone involved. So my kids got, you know, they got to go on a field trip and see a show. Um, but the student teacher teaching artists had real experience working with kids and it was, it was a great learning experience for everybody. I think it's really important you get out there, you can't, even though it feels unconvincing inside of your own classroom, you have to go and find other communities that you intersect with because that's what theater is about. It's creating communities. It's about telling stories and creating universes and touching on as many different parts of the communities as you can. When whenever we would do a main stage show, whenever possible, I would go out into my community and find a community partner that had something to do with that show and we would give 5% of our profits to that partnership as a way to give back. And sometimes that was, you know , a, a homeless shelter depends , you know, sometimes that was um, uh, I mean sometimes it was just, it was another school that we partnered with like an elementary school and middle school that didn't have the ability to make the kind of money that we were able to make at the high school level. It really depended on what it was. But I , I always felt that if the community was supporting us, we had to turn around and support the community as well and be an active member of that community. It wasn't good enough to just say, come to our show and support us. We had to support them as well. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
What I'm speaking of stories, what it , you've shared a couple already, but do you have any other of your favorite stories from your career so far? Funny stories, horror stories, impactful moments?
Speaker 4:
Um, well, I , I can tell you some beach . Uh, so I would always start off on rehearsals telling a list of all of the ways that students got hurt throughout the rehearsal process and into the show. Um, and the kids never really believed me because you know, toward the, toward the, the recent past here , you know, I can name many, many times where kids have, have stolen M and M ms from their friends and went running through a door that they thought pushed open, but didn't, it pulled open and slammed in. Um, that was one of my favorite students and she was able to, to miss my raft by selling 12 tickets of the emergency room to the, to the nurses and the doctors. Um, I've had kids walk off of platforms. I've had kids run up a flight of stairs to bash their head into the light cause they weren't paying attention at the top of the stairs. Um, um , I've had students , um, you know, I've had students break lots of tools and, and, and especially drill bits. I had one girl who, who just brought me a package of drill bits , um, at for Christmas because she had broken all of them in the shop. Um, lots of shop mishaps, but I think that's part of learning tools and learning how to build things. Um, one of my very favorite funny stories that I love to tell even to this day is as I had a student, a name of Brad and he , his sister was in the shows. All of his friends were in the shows. He was, he was in the drama program. He was a really great kid. God love him. He couldn't act and he couldn't sing and he couldn't dance. But he had the most incredible comic timing of, of a kid that I can think of. I mean, just amazing comic timing. And so we were doing beauty and the beast, which is a big show without having, you know, 160 kids try out for , for it to begin with, you know? And so it was just this ginormous show by the time we got it up. And so there was probably 70 plus kids in, in the cast and there was, you know, another 40 backstage with all of the different props and the set and all the different things going on and, and here's Brad. And he really wanted to be in the show. So I thought to myself, you know, I can, I can easily put them into the chorus , but I had a better idea asset, Brad, you know, we need a little comic relief in this show for some of the really, really tense months moments. I said, I'm going to make you the rug. He goes, that's not even a part. I'm like, it is now. You're going to be the rug. Trust me on this. And , and so we literally, we went and got like an Afghan rug and cut a hole in it and we just put it over him like a poncho. And he was the rug and his big debut, he ended up stealing the show. So what ended up happening was he, it's, it's the big , um, be our guest song and we have more , we have like two staircases in this multiple levels and, and the song is like eight minutes long anyway. Right. And they get to the very end and they are all, everyone's out there with forks and knives and plates and chips and , and I mean like every, like there's 70 some kids on stage and they get to the end, the finale of the song, you know, and they have that kind of thing where they're , they're half to the audience cause there's so many of them lined up and they have one hand high upstairs , upstairs had high downstage hand low in the debtor, jazz hands. They like dr yes. You know, and I didn't put a button on the lights where they flashed bright sky, like the cue , like clap. Now I just left it and I didn't go to blackout and they're just holding it, smiling with their jazz hands going and after the clapping end is and kind of became awkward because nothing was happening. That's when I sent thread from stage left out across the stage eating a huge sandwich and he's walking across the stage and he's like totally oblivious and he's eating the sandwich and he stops pretty much center stage and he looks out and he spikes the audience. Like he's just realizing they're there and then he looks back at the stage and he looks up at all of these kids, still smiling, still jazz handing and he looks back to the audience again and he takes another huge bite of the sandwich and with the sin in which in the uphill upstage hand he goes into the same jazz hands and smiles. Then we hit the blackout was so funny and he ended up stealing the entire show. We did another thing with him where where when Belle and the beast were really arguing and they were like getting really violent and they were like yelling at each other and he just kind of walked into the scene , stretched and laid down on the floor and it was the perfect amount of the perfect amount of, of comic relief. And when he came out for his bow , this kid who couldn't sing and couldn't dance and then wasn't a great actor, got for most enormous standing ovation and he ended up stealing the show and it was hysterical. And he was such, it was so much fun to like add that little bit because I knew, I knew what he was capable of. I knew that he had this amazing comic talent and he did not, he did not go and, and, and put it to waste. I mean, it was so much fun. People talked about that three years. And that's my example when I'm teaching, you know, about stagefright and being the best Butler number four or whatever it is your part is, you know, to kids. I tell them about Brad and how he was just amazing as the rug in beauty and the beast and , and so, God, that was, that was a lot of fun. That's awesome. That's really cool.
Speaker 3:
Um, you shared some awesome resources already with us. Do you have any others that you think we need to know about as theater teachers?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I, you know, I was listening to a bunch of the podcasts and I know that a lot of people were talking about general resources, but I think there's a handful of books I think that every drama teacher should absolutely have. Um, so I am again, a massive fan of the Huggins , a challenge for the after 10 acting exercises. And the reason that I really love Buddha Hoggin is because instead of it being like emotional recall, it's outside in. And so you , you get a 14 year old and, and there are , they're in your classroom, they can recreate what they worked on at home. I'm not asking them to think about their, you know, their puppy dying or anything like that. I'm asking them to recreate what's act planning . And I think that that is a really strong approach to use with students. Um, you know, other than that , if you do have kids that need some method or need some viewpoints, you can then start sprinkling that in there. But I think that that collagen approach is really smart when working with young actors. It gives you so much to work. Um, I really love the book structuring drama work by Jonathan Newlands that allows you to go and create lots and lots of different lessons based on the different kinds of exercises that are in that book. And then for games, I mean I have all the Viola Spolin and Augusta Burwell acting for acting A's for non-majors, but I, I really like the drama menu, either games and three courses by Glenn tra for Jones. I don't think I'm saying that right, but I think those are some books that every drama teacher should have sitting on their shelf and that it allows you to put together so many different lessons, so many different ways of , of engaging the kids. Um,
Speaker 3:
no is it , those are resources that hi , I'm happy to share. Those are great. Those are great. Um, on a personal note , uh, for me , uh, the, the education geek inside me. What , um , if you're able to tell me what are, what's your research that you're currently doing with your doc program? Oh yeah.
Speaker 4:
So , um, I do a lot of work with arts integration. Um, I'm a huge arts integration advocate and I've gone and , um, created, I created the arts integration program for Frederick County public schools. I go and I work as a consultant at times. I do a lot of , uh, PD with students or with teachers. I mean , um, and my personal research is on teacher evaluation for teachers to use arts integration in their classrooms. So if you're being evaluated and you're an arts integration teacher who is teaching and assessing with two different curriculums at once, you know, your arts curriculum and then whichever curriculum it is you're teaching with. I'm looking at the general perceptions of teachers and principals using, you know, a Danielson approach to teacher evaluation. But for an arts integration, like how does it work, how is it effective? So on and so forth. So that is what my research is on and I am deep in that right now. Luckily it's the summer and I have time to sit and work and I have defended my proposal and I'm waiting for some IRB , uh, finishing , uh , approvals. So now I can that I can go and start all of my interviews. And , and my research and hopefully have a couple more letters after my name by the time I get to December.
Speaker 3:
There you go. There you go. Well, I do not envy where you are, but I would love to read your work when you are finished because that sounds really, really interesting to me. So all the best with that. Um , thank you so much. Yeah, chapter five was honestly probably the hardest chapter for me to write, so
Speaker 4:
I had been born
Speaker 3:
so good. Um , my final question for you is what are your parting words of wisdom for new teachers coming into the field or for those veterans who just need an uplift? Right.
Speaker 4:
Yeah , I think for people who are just coming into the field , um, first I think it's really important that you find a solid mentor. Uh, you find someone who has done it for a while and knows what they're talking about and can help you jump over the pitfalls that a lot of us run into. Um, the really humble, if you don't know how to do something. One of my favorite things to say to Kansas, I don't know. Let's figure it out together. Uh , you know, you don't have to be an expert. You just have to know more than the kids. Uh, one of my favorite things that I ever learned that I always teach to any , um, young drama teachers or student teachers that I yet is, I w I studied with a professor in North Hampton in London during my masters and she had done her research on different levels of, of attention and engagement in, in a drama classroom. And so she had low, medium and high , uh , focus activities and a low focus activity would be everyone in the room doing the same thing at the same time. Then the medium level is a group of students doing something that the rest of the classes watching. And then a high level would be one person performing the model , the hall or something, you know, some sort of performance or some sort in front of a class. And the biggest thing I see young drama teachers do is they will go and they'll teach the last thing they did when they were in college, which is a very high level, high focus activity. And that will freak out kids, you know, and then you'll, and then they, then they'll say, Oh, I don't have, you know, I can't get my kids engaged. They won't do well. They do want to, but you have to build too . So you have to start with those low focus activities. So what I will do and in my freshman classes is I'll spend the first week or two doing nothing but low focus games into medium focus games depending on the room. And as far as I'm concerned, that's part of my curriculum where I can go and I can learn the kids, which is very important. I'm teaching all kinds of drama basics by going through low level games where learning stage left stage, right from kinds of theaters. You know, we're learning how to interact with , listen, we're learning how to make high focus. I , I, you know, I contact focusing on listening, you know, learning appropriate touch, how to create, you know, creating stories, beginning, middle end, all low focus activities, moving to medium , uh , focus activities where now I have a group creating tableaus and I, you know, or, or we're doing some sort of storytelling and proper or whatever that is into high level focus. And by the time I get that Hyde focus activities, my kids are in, you know, they know everybody's name in the classroom, you know, they know things about each other. They've, they've spent a week and a half, two weeks doing nothing but these activities and now they're comfortable and not even gets over the , the students that don't want to participate because they're too shy. Well, I have now coaxed them into participating at whatever level they're interested in. And it can even start with, you know what? It's okay if you don't want to participate right now. You can hang out for a minute, but we're going to do an activity in a few minutes where everyone's doing the same exact thing. No one's looking at you and I need you to come up and do something. And if I have to take a little bit each day to get that student , that one student to a level where they're ready to participate, I'll do that using that low, medium, and high. And that's a lesson I wish I had learned when I was first teaching theater. Um, two experienced drama teachers. I would again say be active in the larger community, you know, and, and be willing to share with others. Not only stuff but knowledge. Um, because I think that, I think that there's enough research that shows that a program is only as good as the person who is standing in front of it and the in the front of the room. And you need to always be learning cause you owe it to not only yourself as a professional, as an educator, but also to the kids that are walking into the room for the first time. You know, I've been in, in many situations where I've been kids who have never seen a show and then we'll take them to New York. You know, I've had, you know, or we would do, we would do our address rehearsal during the day and we would invite the local elementary schools. And I would always ask, you know who, who's never been to a play before? And every time you get kids who would raise their hands. And that was so amazing to me because not only did I get to be the person who got to show them their first show, but my students had that responsibility to do the best they possibly could because this is there that child's very first experience with live theater. And it's gonna be good. It's not going to be fluff. It's not gonna be, you know, just something that, that their grandparents took them to because it's quote unquote good for them. It's good to be an excellent story told. Well, and that was just so exciting. And if you're an experienced drama teacher and you're not reaching out to your community and you're not giving back and you're not sharing both what you're doing in your classroom and, and what you've accumulated between your ears, then you know, you , you're , you're missing out on part of the fun of doing this job.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. I appreciate that. That those are good words. Uh, well, mr Lazarus, thank you so much for a reaching out to me, but , uh, playing email tag to set this up and , and finally getting to talk to me. So I really appreciate you taking your time.
Speaker 4:
I appreciate you having me on it and I, and I think that what you're doing for the community is really fantastic and I encourage as many drama teachers to put themselves out there as possible because I think the more that we hear from each other and the more that we know that, that other people are facing the same kinds of things , um, you know, to go out there, create new work , um, with your kids, don't be scared of it. I think that theater is an excellent place to have sticky conversations. Where that, you know, because it's a structured environment , um, you know, keep, keep learning. I mean, I'm constantly learning as much as I possibly can. You can see me cause we're, we're on this conversation so you can see my bookshelves behind me and that's not all of them. There's more over there. So I'd be , you know, I read , I see as much theater as I can when I have the opportunity to see it. It's hard to do when you're a drama teacher, especially when you have little kids like I do. Um, you know, just, just keep, keep the community going.
Speaker 3:
I appreciate that and I appreciate all you're doing. Um , I wish you all the best with not only your doctoral studies, but next , uh, in August when you, when you start at the middle school. And I know those kids are lucky. You have a great energy and you're enthusiastic and you love what you do. And I tell just from, just from our hour together here and , uh , all the best to you. So thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you Jenny . Appreciate it . Yes sir. Well thank you Julian for chatting with me. It was great meeting you and great chatting and finding out about your, your experience and, and all the great world pearls of wisdom that you had to offer for us. So thank you for your words. Thank you for your time and uh , I look forward to staying in touch with you as we have so far and uh , I'm just continuing a great , uh , professional relationship as well as friendship. I do hope you enjoy the episode as well. For those of you listening, I had a wonderful time putting all these interviews together for you and for specifically the tech theater unit that I've provided here for you, but I just want to thank you for listening. Please make sure you visit our website, www.fedtalks.com . That's T H E D T a L K s.com , uh , where you can find all of our past transcripts and archives of all of our episodes as well as a link for each of the teachers to check out the resources that they provided as well as their , uh , recommendations for, for things to keep you going in your classroom. Please go on your favorite podcast provider , uh, Apple podcast , iTunes, Google podcast , Google play, Spotify, Stitcher, any pod and tune in and find fed talks anywhere where you get your PR , your podcast. Subscribe to the show, rate us, leave us some stars and review us. Tell us what you liking about the show and be sure you share what we're doing with those theater educators in your life. Uh , please make sure you check out our new segment on the show. You can find the link on the website, www.fedtalks.com and click on the link. So this just happened because we want to hear from you. You can go to that link and there's an online form for you to submit your scenario, your questions or situations. Uh , for us to read on the show and discuss possible responses, solutions, and interventions to the submission that you provide us. Submit as many of those topics you'd like to have us discuss, but submit only those topics that need immediate attention and are not emergency type questions. If you want to discuss your issue or your concern from your classroom a on the show with us , uh, to with Miriam Kurkendahl and myself, please do that and leave that information, leave your contact information in a that , that online form. Thank you so much again for listening. Please email me any time with a show suggestions for topics you want to hear talked about on the show or if you want to be a guest on the show or have a recommendation for a guest on the show. I want to hear from you. My email is thread talks podcast@gmail.com. You can find us on all of our social media, interact with me there on twitter@theateredtalksontumblerthreadtalksdottumblr.com . You can find us on Facebook at Ted TedTalks , Instagram fed talks podcast and of course our website, www.fedtalks.com . Thank you Joel Hamlin and Joshua Schusterman for the use of your original music magnetize and flip the record that we use here on the show. Very grateful to you all and I'm thankful for you for listening each week. Please go back. If this is your first
Speaker 2:
episode, please go back and listen to all the others. There's some great information and some great stories all the way back into the spring of 2019 here and here we are in October. It's hard to imagine that we've been going well over six months and we're already really hard and heavy into this school year . So go back, check those out, know that you're not alone and know that there are other theater teachers out there who or have experienced or are experiencing what you're experiencing and are doing this because they love it. They love what they do and they love this kid. So know that you're not alone and do check us out each week with the new episode. Thanks for joining me. Hope you have a great week.
