1.14 PRIDE Part 2- A Conversation with Briandaniel Oglesby and Alex Faulkner
This week Jimmy talks with teacher and playwright Briandaniel Oglesby and BFA Acting major Alex Faulkner about their experiences being an out queer teacher and out gender non-binary student. They discuss original works that deal with LGBTQIA topics with middle school students and new works that challenge the norm. This is part 2 of a 3-part series for PRIDE month.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
You're listening to episode 14 of THED Talks with Jimmy Chrismon. THED Talks is a podcast for theatre teachers and theatre education students. Hi, I'm Doctor Jimmy Chrismon, theater education professor at Illinois State University. Each week I want to bring you stories and interviews from experienced K12 theatre teachers, current theatre education majors and professors of theatre education that will warm your heart, renew your faith in teaching and provide resources to better your practice in your theater classroom. Thank you so much for listening. This is a special episode, a PRIDE episode. This is number two of a three part series that we're doing for PRIDE. In part one we heard from Harry Culpepper and Annaliisa A hlman who a re both out queer theatre teachers in South Carolina and Illinois respectively. This week w e a re going to hear from t wo other guests. One is a middle school and high school theatre teacher in Texas, Briandaniel Oglesby you'll remember him from our conversation on his episode several weeks back. But um, this week he's specifically talking about the work that he did with his students in creating a Romeo and Juliet. Um, his middle schoolers created what he calls an LGBTYA version of Romeo and Juliet with a same sex couple. So we'll be looking at that and talking about his process with that. Additionally, I had the chance to speak with Alex Faulkner who is a gender nonbinary theatre student at UNC Greensboro. They are, uh, really working diligently to, to create an environment where all students feel safe and included to create new works and to challenge the norm. So I do hope you enjoy listening to both of those. Again, please always check out our website www.thedtalks.com where you can find our archives, our transcripts, and all of our resources that the teachers recommend on the show. So please check that out. Additionally, there is a listener survey out there that you can find on social media. It's a simple Google form that'll take you just a couple of minutes to fill out and give us some feedback on how we're doing here on the show. Things that I can improve, things that you're liking, guests that you might want to see. Um, other things like that. Just to help me keep continuing to better what I'm doing here. So thank you so much for listening. Here's part two of our PRIDE series. So I'm joined again by Briandaniel Oglesby. He was on a previous episode of THED Talks and he's joining me once again. Um, and we're going to dig a little bit deeper into specifically one of his works, but also just kind of talking with him about, um, LGBTQ youth and, um, and, and doing plays where they are represented in the work. Um, so talk to me a little bit about your, uh, your middle school production of your, um, LGBT Romeo and Juliet.
BRIANDANIEL O:
I write the plays with and for my kids, that's, that's something that you, you kind of need to know. And that semester I didn't know what I was doing with my junior high kids. I started off with, um, having a bunch of, I was actually don't know what to do. What am I going to do? So, I came up with a handful of activities. One of the activities that they really responded to was when I used, um, sort of Shakespeare plot points and they had to sort of create their own version of that and they were like, oh, this is really fun. We should do a Shakespeare adaptation. And I'm like, okay. Um, that is an interesting choice. Um, and then another thing they did when we were generating stories, there was one story that was about a king who's has a daughter or a princess and the king doesn't want the princess to marry another princess. And those were the two that were really sparking in our process. And so there was a lot of devising and creating over the course of a few weeks. The other thing that they also wanted was something where there was not a single protagonist that we were following throughout the play. And so I started thinking about the Shakespeare plays and I, and the tragedies tend to have a single protagonist that we are following throughout the play, the Scottish play or Hamlet or King Lear. Um, they tend to be less ensembley and the comedys tend to not have that robust of a plot and I felt like we needed was something that has like this really robust plot, a very clear beginning, middle and end and things that happen along the way. And I was like, well Romeo and Juliet has more than one protagonist, I'm not really excited about it cause it's such a, it's a play that is done in a very traditional way all the time. And I brought that to the students. Um, and I definitely had the thought in my head like what if we did the gay version of it and it was the students actually who said like, why don't we combine the story with the princess who is in love with a princess with Romeo and Juliet. And I was like, oh, I yes anded that because I was like really excited by that prospect. And I was like really astonished. The kids would come up with that and would like be excited about that. And they were, they were enthusiastic about it. They really, I think part of it was just like that they know a lot of gay people, gay stories were just normal for them. And I think there was an element of like, if we do this, it makes us special because it's not a thing that exists out there. Like it's just like they had that sort of felt sense of it is like both, both like this is completely normal to us and this is different. Like I had them close their eyes to vote whether or not they were comfortabel doing it and they were all comfortable doing it, which, um, so that they didn't have any. So there was no peer pressure. They are very early on and I cast it. And the reason I did that was because I didn't want to write a play and then have no one comfortable playing a part of someone who falls in love with someone of the same sex. And so I did, I used the same method I had. I was like, everyone close your eyes and if you're comfortable with playing a Romeo and Juliet i n a same sex relationship, raise your hand. And I had, um, two boys and one girl. And so I was like, well, I guess we're just, we'll go w ith Romeo, Romeo a nd Juliet are two young guys and we spent a month generating stuff. Sometimes it was like just taking a scene from Romeo and Juliet reading it and just going out and like not looking at it and just doing it in our own paraphrased version. The balcony scene was done 100% that way. Like I crafted a little, I crafted a little bit of stuff but like, but the balcony scene was, was definitely started. Like just from there they read the balcony saying and then he just did it. I was always afraid I get kickback from the parents. I was really, really transparent. I was always, I was keeping in touch with them, but they were quiet and super supportive. Like I felt like this. So it was a play that needed more time than we could fit into a period our theatre is part of the part of the, the school day. It's not an afterschool thing. And so the play was longer than needed than, and so we needed some after school rehearsals as well. And um, those rehearsals were always open I didn't have anyone come and watch, but I what they were, it was always open cause like again, transparency was a very, very important for something that I was afraid we'd get kick back with. But the kids want to do it. And that was part of our core philosophy is like that we, we listen to the kids and we do, um, we don't always do exactly what they want to do, but we do take their input as part of our, my school's philosophy. And there was some really just lovely discoveries along the way. Um, as we were doing this, we talked about how there's a lot of stories where a, where I'm the gay characters die at the end as sort of a punishment or a way of making straight people feel guilty and that we didn't want to just redo that. And so we have, we have an extra twist at the end that the actors sort of rebel and like forced the chorus to like Redo the, Redo the ending as a happy ending and, and but still fitting with the materials that were given to us. All the words are dif all like I used a little bit of Shakespeare's language once Romeo thinks Juliet has died. And his sort of like moment of madness. There's lapsing into the actual Shakespeare language that we had, um, that were, um, that we're pulling from. But everything else was stuff that I created or the kids created with uh, along the way.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Tell me a little bit more about your, the, the journey to get there. Cause I read some of the essays on Howlround and uh, we, you, you kind of chronicled the journey and talk to me a little bit about how you, how you dealt with possible community issues with, with what you did.
BRIANDANIEL O:
The possible community issues was basically we kept it really, really quiet. Like I told my friends and tried to get my friends to come out and I was to come out and see this thing and we were afraid of kickback in Dripping Springs. Our students are from both Austin and Dripping, mostly from Austin at that time they were mostly from Austin. The town is more conservative. I think it's inarguable that is more conservative than Austin and so we made the choice that we would be more territorial in terms of like who we try to get to come see it because we didn't want it to, we didn't want that to be the experience that the kids took away from this. Right. Like I think that also meant like we were doing this really cool thing, this thing that I found really cool and I really struggled to get my friends to come see it and that I talk. I talk about that and Howlround that sort of like I think, I think it's because people don't think that you can make art with teenagers or that the, that, that the fact that you're creating a story with middle schoolers doesn't make it art. And I think that was one of the things that I figured I realized in this process was like, oh the, it's not the story itself. It's the fact that we are doing that. We're, that we are that we're doing this story with people, with, with young people with and for them. And that is, that's part of it.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well, it sounds like you, you wanted to, you were, you're protective of your kids and you wanted them to have the best experience possible with it. Yeah, I am, I'm going to assume, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that you had a very supportive administration, uh, with the, with what you did and you, you were, you were wanting the safety of your kids. And I think that's important for any teacher, any theatre teacher who is looking to do material that is not a, I don't know, the best way to put it, not so safe that they are, um, that you do have your administrative support. And cause when I, when I was teaching, I, I, I could not have done something like that in the area I was, it just, it was, that would not have happened. So I, I admire the work that you have done with your kids with that and, and that you all told that story the way that they wanted to tell it because I think it's important that, cause I know you in the last interview we had you, you have a, a pretty strong LGBT population in your, in your school. So I think it's extremely important that they're represented in the work that they do. Yeah. And that their teacher allows that representation to happen. So talk to me about a little bit about how you were feelings and thoughts on that.
BRIANDANIEL O:
I yeah, I have a wonderful, I have a wonderful, a supportive boss. I think that was, that was part of it. One of her children is gay and I was going into the school and, and uh, and my boss created the school for her kids and I, and um, to create the world that she wants. At the time, I didn't have any like out junior high kids, but we had a hand... We had out high schoolers. Like, I mean it's a really small school. It's a very, very small school. So, um, and we've have since had numerous, uh, out junior high kids as well in such a small school. Everyone knows gay people. Like I'm a, I'm very out and remember the kids are as well. And I think, I mean, yeah, I think it is as a gay person it is important for us to feel like we're part of our community and we part of our landscape and being treated and, and represented as such and having our stories be part of the stories we're actually telling I think. I think that is important.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well, if you don't mind I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about you being an out teacher and I think representation of themselves in adults who are successful as well. Um, so can you talk a little bit about that experience of, of being out teacher with your students?
BRIANDANIEL O:
I grew up not knowing any gay people that I knew that I knew I should say. And I had to learn everything and be my own role model. And I try to be a role model for the younger gay kids. I try to be there in case they want to know something. I think that just that we exist and knowing that like I didn't know gay people existed really. Like I thought I, I did know that they existed but they were villains in popular media or they were dying. And that is, that sucks man. Like that is a crappy way to grow up. And I grew up in a wonderful environment. I have a city that's very embracing of LGBT people, um, but just they didn't exist. And so I think just existing is important. Being able to represent that point of view when a student wants to create a piece that is LGBT or in any, in any of the classes and being like, okay, so or being able to highlight how something is not inclusive or just like, you know, those emojis mean something different in gay world. Like you probably shouldn't be using them in class. Like, and being able to translate that the gay kids. Okay. Because it's like there were like some monolith of, I mean in like and in a small school it's like not like hundreds of people. It's a handful of people. But like I still, I think a number of them feel really empowered to talk about who they are to joke about who they are, to be public about who they are or to come out like to. And there's sometimes I just have to pull rank on that and just be like I'm the elder Gay here and okay we need to, we do talk about how our, how we're using language and are we being close to here? Like let's not over police how people are representing their bodies. And so I think there's like also ways that I have to sort of like kick back against everything they hear online about how things are and give a larger perspective on on things as well. And talk a little bit more about like the history of where, of how things got to where they were and try to urge them to be more in community and for like the kids who are gay to respect the pronouns of the trans kids and like, you know, that kind of thing. And just be like, okay, this is the larger, these are some larger issues that we're drawing upon. And I think the big thing is like, I want to be the difference between growing up knowing that are older gay people and not like, I think that's important.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I think that's really important. I and I, I was not out teaching when I taught high school. My kids knew. I never said I was, I never said that I was not, but they also never asked. They knew. And they were very protective of me. It was last, last year at ISU. We were, we were doing a, um, a big unit in my junior and senior methods class on diversity and we talked about racial diversity, we talked about gender, we talked about disabilities, we talked about, um, and then LGBT. And one of my students, I could tell she was absolutely terrified to ask the question that she had, but she asked and she wanted to know how as a lesbian, how, how would she navigate that world? Yeah. And it was a very strange, very cool, but almost kind of tragic at the same time moment. That I said aloud the first time, well as a gay man and a teacher and I, I just, I have found over the last two years in the position that I'm in, that, that representation that the, those students seeing another gay person who is successful, who is happy, who is, um, unashamedly them, yeah. Has been a very big deal. And it's been really, really interesting for me to watch those students, um, as, as they've come out to me. Um, because I, I had students in the high school come out to me quite quite frequently and then at the university level, having the same thing happen. So it's, I think that where you can, when you can be safe and you can do that for your students, I think it's, it's a, it's a good thing. Where can we find, um, your Romeo and Juliet?
BRIANDANIEL O:
uh, the Romeo and Juliet? I believe it's posted on the New Play Exchange. Um, you can Google my name, Briandaniel, one word Oglesby and then look up New Play Exchange. Uh,, my email address is that plus Gmail. So like I'm more than happy to share it. I'm aware that it's one that's less likely to be produced and my like deleted scenes from fairy tales because it's hard to find those communities where, where either there won't be kick back or that the weight of the thrust forward will, is, is, is, is greater than that in the weight of the kickback or the, the consequences of that. But it's a fun read. It's campy as hell, i t's campy and Dorky. And I really enjoyed a nd, and you really have to imagine it with junior high kids doing it. I think that's actually what's really, u m, i t's one of those plays w here l ike some junior high k ids i s l ike, like you could do it with adults because t his county, o h a nd funny. This is the one where it's like it needs to be junior high because there's gay Romeo and Juliet and like, and the high school all the time. Like in progressive communities they do RENT like but not, but not in middle school anyways. So you can, you can find that there or email me. I'm, I'm more than happy to share it. I mean it's the, it really the, I mean that that play really gave me my program because it felt like something important and it added, it meant that we were, we put a lot more energy and we put time and I figured out how to get parents, like how parents felt like they really wanted to help volunteer and bring food and stuff like that. And I did not realize that. And thus I was able to, from there I was able to like really build a program for both my high schoolers and my junior high kids because the kids liked hanging out after school and rehearsing and I'm like, Oh, you want after school rehearsals? Then we can do more ambitious things and that's awesome to do something that it's not an edgy play. Okay. Does, and it doesn't end the way that it pushes boundaries as that treats gay people as normal, but it does it with junior high kids and that's kind of awesome.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Which I think there's a special power in that that, I mean even if the school can't produce the show, they can have the script on the shelf for a kid to read and find, you know, just weaving it into the culture of, oh, that's what I, I tell my students all the time is you don't have to do a one off lesson of, we're talking about LGBTQ in theatre, You know, it's just, there are plays on the shelf. Yeah, they're, I, I recognize you in my class. I see you, I hear you. And I'm not afraid to talk about things if they, if they come up. Um, so I think, I think that's extremely important. So just it's part of everything you do. So I appreciate you doing that and I hope people check out your play. But thank you for, for joining me on this that I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed talking with you about these things.
BRIANDANIEL O:
I had a blast I'd have last. I like, it's a making, uh, the world of making theatre with teenagers and uh, making art with teenagers is one that it's hard for me to chat with. Like, like just like my friends, right? Like I have friends, some of them care, some of them don't. So I like sometimes my theatre friends care and some of them don't because you're working with young. So like something, someone who cares about the things I care about is always a blast to chat.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well, feel free to chat with me anytime you've got my information and reach out anytime.
BRIANDANIEL O:
Right on. Likewise, sir.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well, thank you. Now we're going to shift gears and talk with, uh, the current theatre student at UNC Greensboro. This is my interview with Alex Faulkner, talking about being a gender nonbinary student and the work that they are doing to create the space and create a place where all LGBT students, all students in general can feel safe to explore and challenge the norm. I want to welcome my next guest on THED Talks, Alex Faulkner. They are a BFA in acting major at UNC Greensboro with a minor in women's and gender studies. Um, they are a former student of a very dear friend of mine, Miriam Kuykendall, who I know listens to the podcast regularly and we will have on eventually. So Alex, if you want to, uh, just introduce yourself a little bit. Tell, tell everybody where kind of what you're doing right now and, and how, how you got to where you are.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Okay. Well thank you very much for having me. As you said, my name is Alex Faulkner and my pronouns are they them theirs. And I am currently a rising junior in the BFA acting program with a minor in women's and gender, gender studies at UNC Greensboro. And I currently am trying to shape myself into becoming a political artist In collegiate academic settings and then into the real business industry because it is something that is shaping the way that audiences go to see theatre. And the way that theatre is created. And my background comes from primarily Miriam Kuykendall. She's someone that sparked the theatre in me, but I was always a very theatrical kid growing up. So it's just something was inate with me.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
There's lots of things I want to hit on, um, with even just what you just shared, but let, let's, let's talk about what you wanted, kind of what you're doing right now and where your focus of your studies are going with the, um, the theatre industry and in the current political climate. So share a little bit more about your thoughts on that and uh, and kind of what you've been doing with that.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Well, it's been very challenging and very mind opening, coming into a very diverse university because UNCG is one of the more diverse North Carolina Universities in a public setting especially. And a lot of the faculty here are CIS, heterosexual, white people who are probably upper age. And they acknowledge that, which is good. They just don't know how to acknowledge the other issues. So it comes down to a lot of the younger students to create the conversations in the classroom and outside of the classroom, which I try to take a part of and it's a lot of power I guess for the students to have to take that upon themselves and accountability. But a lot of the teachers do listen and they acknowledge that there are issues that they did not predict having 30 years ago when they were just starting their careers. One of my professors even said that if we cannot change the system here at a collegiate level, there is no hope for the industry. And we do see a lot of media challenging the norms of society and the norms of Hollywood's big moneymaking movies. And it's at a slow start, but it's a start. And I've been personally creating pieces that address issues through poetry. And then one person shows, and I have it on my Youtube, and the most recent project I did was called Translating the Body, which I will be continuing to develop throughout my academic career. But I presented it as a movement piece. I called it, but every piece should be a movement piece because there's life in every piece of art. But I wanted to show the personal emotional challenges that I feel with the gender expectation of a person who was assigned male at birth and then being white in a theatrical industry and how that affects me with presenting myself and how it also affects the LGBTQ community being theatre performers and then just living,
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well, let, let's just, let's just lay it out there. What are, what are those problems that, that your professors have identified and that you're talking about? Let's just lay it out there.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Lack of proper representation, not understanding how to properly represent a queer person who doesn't fit within the cookie cutter binary of men and woman. And it's interesting because we are getting a lot of new pieces that have queer characters, trans characters that we normally don't see, but sometimes they get too angsty, too in your face and too abrupt and it becomes all about that topic. So even though we're getting these pieces they are not well done yet because they haven't been done for that long. I played a piece called Addressing the Nation where the character was non binary, but that was one of the more harder pieces I did because I've, I did not feel that as a character. I felt that as myself and it was just over, it was a broad painting of what it means to be queer and the professors here at UNCG don't want to be challenged a lot but they want to make sure that the students are comfortable, which makes it very challenging to make change because I'm only 20 years old and everyone else here that are with that are career students are students that are ranging from 18 to 23 years old. They don't have a lot of experience in industry and we don't know how to fix the proper representation or how we want to be represented
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well and there's no change in comfort There's no movement forward if you're comfortable and happy where you are. So I appreciate the work that you're doing and I'm excited to see what else comes from that work and you pushing, pushing those boundaries and, and making people kind of open their eyes and look at some different things. And I looked up before you, you mentioned the, the importance of representation in the work, um, for queer individuals. What, cause this is a, I mean this is a podcast for theatre teachers. Yes. That's, uh, that's, that's not news, but so how can, how can we as theatre teachers at all levels, not just the high school, but at the, in the collegiate level, but like middle school, elementary school theatre, teaching artists, um, how can, how can we better, um, better do, how can we better represent that in the work that we do with our students? And also talk a little bit about why that's so important as a queer individual to see that.
ALEX FAULKNER:
I think the best thing that teachers can do and all grade levels for all of their students, regardless of gender identity and exploration, is to give space for their students to explore and then to fail. I think that's the one thing that I appreciated having my in childhood is that I was given space and support for exploration and especially in the theatre classroom. I realized I was very lucky because not a lot of theatre students have the opportunity to explore their identities and then explore the representation in theater that they have and also to allow conversation to happen between the students and the teachers are very important, but not to intervene with their discoveries because the one thing I want here at UNCG is more opportunities to fail because I am seen as a cis white man and that's how the industry wants to see me, but I want to be able to put myself in the roles that may not get me any money and then may hurt my career, but still be able to explore those options and I think that's what we need is just space.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
As I'm approaching your response from the the the lens of a teacher and I want to have those conversations. I want to encourage that exploration in my classes with my students. Not just my queer students, but all my students. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts from the students student perspective of how we can do that so that we're still keeping you safe? Or is that something I should even think about?
ALEX FAULKNER:
That, that is a good question. That's because it works differently for each student. And that's what makes this so challenging because especially in the gender non conforming identity or just the queer aspect, it's a very individualistic experience. So it's not gonna work the same way for everyone. And a lot of people don't understand that, so they just, they just try to make out a blueprint for how to teach a queer student. Not realizing that each queer student is different than the next. But what works best for me and for a lot of my colleagues is to have days or moments or just create meetings. And a lot of times that's on the students, which needs to be acknowledged to go out of their way and to talk with teachers about issues and how their body is being used in particular pieces and how they can shape the way that the world has made theatre. See us. Does that make sense?
JIMMY CHRISMON:
It does. It does.
ALEX FAULKNER:
I still don't know the industry completely. I'm still in college student, but I try to do my research. I tried to do my readings and then challenge everything that I watch. But being too critical can also hurt the lens because you need to be curious. You need to be curious at all times when it comes to changing art and understanding art. But you can't be too overtly critical with how you're trying to change the world because right now, especially with technology, the industry and then art is at a moment where it's too demanding, and then it's too quick to get, and especially on Youtube, Youtube and Netflix are a big streaming service, but the way that they work is that it's instant gratification and stimulation and it gives you answers all the time whenever you watch something and they always try to give you answers for something and it hinders away from issues that we're facing in society because people forget that art was created to be a mirror to society and we are at a point where we need a bigger mirror. But we want to stay with what we know because we're comfortable and it's developing audience members and students and teachers to work in this sort of system where if not now, never, because we like instant gratification. We'd like to know the answers as soon as we start watching the film, as soon as we start watching the play. And a lot of times people do not want to watch plays that talk about topics. Students that do not personally affect them because sometimes they feel called out, they'll feel uncomfortable or they won't be able to relate.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
This may sound like it's completely off topic, but it goes back to what you just said, that I took a group of IB students to New York for a, uh, a workshop weekend and part of their weekend was to see the musical On the Town and then they came back and did some activities and exercises that dealt with On the Town in the, in the workshop. And my students, uh, we're, uh, they enjoyed the piece. They loved it. They had a wonderful time watching the show and then they get to the workshop and every other student there it was like had this snotty nose in the air and like, oh, it was just fun and fluff. It didn't change the world. It wasn't blah, blah, blah. And, and my students like had enough of hearing it. Then they raised their hands and they were like, um, sometimes theatre is just to enjoy. And, and, and, and I, I felt I had done my job as a teacher because that's what I preach that all the time. Sometimes it's there to entertain, sometimes it's there to change the world, sometimes it's there just to simply hold a mirror up to the audience and say, what are you going to do about what you see?
ALEX FAULKNER:
I have a quote that talks about that. Um, it's from Anna Smith and it says, "what if instead of applause that the audience would say, what can we do better?" That's a great point about entertainment versus confrontation with being in the theatre world. And then creating art is where do those boundaries lie because they're changing a lot and there's this really amazing limited series on Netflix called when they see us and I just started watching it. I think it came out two days ago, but that it's not made for entertainment at all, but it's done strategically where it feels like it's made for viewing pleasure, but it challenges those who are the villains on the screen, which happen to be the white policeman because it's a story about five teams in Harlem who faced racial oppression and micro aggressions and it kind of resonates with Black Klansman. Have you seen that film?
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I have not.
ALEX FAULKNER:
I don't want to say it's the same as when they see us because it though it does talk about microaggressions against people of color, but to see that now and to see it on major streaming services is a big thing. Even though it's not perfectly represented and it's not perfectly giving us the answers and telling us how to move forward. It's a start because it still does have Hollywood aspects and big budget creation and then all that fun stuff. But it does talk about issues that were swept under the rug for so many years.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
So with the the really, really cool innovative work that you're doing right now, what are, what are some, what are some other, um, thing or, or pieces out there that not just television, film, but like in, in theatre that you think are, are doing that really well right now?
ALEX FAULKNER:
I think every attempt is a good attempt for change. Even if I disagree with the change that they're trying to make. Cause I personally don't believe that there's 100% a wrong way to do something. There's just a different way to do something, which is interesting because we had a UNCG alum come back and his name is Brian Kiata and he made this wonderful piece. He has a lot of pieces with the Lupron gene that talks about his experience. He is, he's a person of color and he's also an artist and he just talks about his experience growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood. And I shared with him my piece Translating the Body before it was published on Youtube and he shared back is his thoughts on it. What was interesting because he was the very first person who challenged me out of all the people that I shared it with and we had different understandings because again, he is still a cis heterosexual man, but he's still an artist who face as microaggressions and it was just interesting to see that out of all the people I shared with who were other students that were queer, other professors who focus on women's and gender studies giving me the support. He was the first and make me question why I was doing what I was doing, which confused me because he doesn't understand that experience, but I don't understand his experience
JIMMY CHRISMON:
As a, as a university student right now and and having come through a really good high school theatre program, what do you see as the greatest need in in students in general, but then also with queer students that theatre teachers can, can specifically help with?
ALEX FAULKNER:
You know, I, I'm still exploring that because I'm trying to take into account for all the other queer students who are going to be actors, directors, writers. It's all a very different demand for training and for space availability. But I will go back to say that the best thing that has worked for me, even if it's caused headbutting between me and the professors or me and other colleagues is space to explore it and space to fail. But I also think bringing in material that talks about these identities that we don't get to see is good for the students because a lot of times we just work on pieces that are about a heterosexual white couples falling in love or pieces that are made for the audience members to laugh because we need to make what we made last year in order to keep supporting the theatre through funding, which the theater is not notorious for getting fundings and academic levels, but just being ready to challenge the audiences that fall in love with us and give the audience a chance to maybe hate us for a moment, even if it does mean losing revenue. And that's the one thing I don't like about collegiate performances is because it is about revenue. It's about money and it's not about servicing the students. It's about servicing the audience members. So they come back next season.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Well do you, Eh, at UNC Greensboro because when I was there for my master's program it was a, it was a very different situation than being a student there residentially living and breathing the space. Um, cause I was only there for three weeks in the summer. Um, so what, what, what things are in place at UNC Greensboro that are there for students to be able to do that?
ALEX FAULKNER:
There's a lot of student oriented spaces and projects that talk about these issues that the professors do not know how to even make the right move to start about talking with. And it's about community. There is a very good community here, not just within the theatre department but within the local Greensboro community. Everyone gives everyone an opportunity to present themselves through visual art, performing art, and even doing jazz music. There's a very big jazz scene that's in Greensboro and it's just about stepping outside your house in your comfort zone and to being able to find those. Cause what's worked for me is just challenging myself and a lot of my colleagues don't realize that we have to hold ourselves accountable for finding the change that we need because it's not going to be given to us, which falls back to the instant gratification and having everything handed to us
JIMMY CHRISMON:
And at the same time it's not because there's a part of me that says that that if there's not that space, you go out and make it. But then the other part of me, because I, I fully support what you're saying and I agree with you that that your professors, your teachers, they, we as queer people shouldn't be holding their hand and teaching every step of the way.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Exactly.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yeah. That's not my job.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Yes. That the professors should continue to be students of life, even though they're at the good retirement age. I think they should want to learn and want to understand how to teach these students or just to understand where they're coming from.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Exactly. And because like you just said, the, those teachers who are the, they're tenured, they're full professors, they, they're sitting in their little ivory tower of their offices. They come, they teach, they go home, they do the theatre work outside. They don't feel they have to continue to grow and learn, which correct. That's just not good best practice as a teacher that I've talked about, we've talked about here on the show is that you should be constantly learning, challenging yourself, learning something new. And, and, and I, I feel like an old, an old fogy when I say this and I'm only 41 but I mean the political climate, the advances that have been made with, with LGBTQ rights and, and the visibility in the representation that's out there that is night and day different from even when I was in college less than 20 years ago. So even, even as a queer person myself, I still need to educate myself. I still need to learn. I still need to, I still need to keep up with the times and, and, and provide those spaces and provide, provide a better understanding for not just my queer students, but my, my, my non-queer students who, who may not understand it's my job to help educate and it's my space as a teacher to, to continue to better myself, to continue to educate myself and to continue to do that, not just for myself, but for my students. So I think it's extremely important that teachers, no matter what age they are, no matter how long they've been doing this, that they step up and they do that. And I think it's important to hear that, that perspective from a student voice who's currently in it. So thank you for sharing that. And a, and, and again, I hope all of your professors maybe hear this and someone does something, but, but I, I think, I think getting those words out there and saying this and reminding people that again, this is not my job to teach you as a queer person. It, that's your job as a teacher to be better and to do better.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Yes, yes.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Let's, uh, let's go back to a little bit with your experience in high school theatre because I adore Mrs. Kuykendall. Um, she was standing up there with me at my wedding back in October. Um, so she has a very special place in my heart. I, I performed her wedding for her and her husband. Um, uh, so I, I know what a huge ally and support she has been for not just you, but all students, students. She's got the biggest heart in the world. And so tell me, maybe tell me a funny story, a horror story of most meaningful moment you had your high school theatre program with her.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Oh my goodness. How much time do we have? I will say that I'm very, very thankful that I had Miriam Kuykendall as my theatre teacher when I did, especially since I was right about to go out into the real adult world. She let me take on these roles in class that the industry does not want me to do. And I played a lot of female characters a lot of CIS female characters in these in class projects. And Mrs. K gave no blink of an eye and said, all right, turn in the paperwork like every other student, you know, she, she let me challenge myself and let me change the way that I've seen myself on stage with the other classmates and just treated it as normal because that's what it is. It's normal and I'm very thankful that she let me have fun with gender expression on stage in class. There's, there's one thing though that I always think back to as I continue to develop in my career is that she's very open hearted and very straight forward with what she will tell you and how she understands the world. And she pulled me aside before I was about to graduate and said, this isn't verbatim, but she told me that I need to start focusing more on my masculine characters when I go to auditions and when I ready myself for the industry because that's how the world will see me. And she meant it with a great loving heart because she was right. That's how the industry sees me. That's how the world sees me as a theatre student. And that just resonates with my collegiate training because professors always just throw me these cis male roles and don't give me the opportunities like Mrs. K gave me, which I think is what's so great about her is that she will let you do what you feel is right with your body and as an artist and she will let you fail doing it even though she'll know you'll fail. She'll let you fail on your own.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Which I think that's really interesting because I mean if, if, if you think about what, what most people perception of, of collegiate theater is, that's where you get to be more daring. That's where you get to try new things. That's where you get to be more exploratory in what you're doing. And uh, yeah. It seems like kind of the opposite happened with you.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Yeah. With productions in high school I still had to do the male, the CIS male, the male characters because the principal still had the final say with what shows we would get to do and what person gets to play, which role. But it was the in class moments that were private and as a community that helped me understand where I need to go and what I need to do for myself. And then for helping the queer community, be seen and understood on stage. Yeah,
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I'm really happy she, she gave you that opportunity. So as a, as a college student, a and well as a college professor? I know college students, um, immerse themselves in 8 million different things, especially college theater students. So how do you, and I'm, I'm, I'm only going to assume that you are no different. Um, how do you, how do you take care of yourself emotionally and physically while you're doing all that? Or do you?
ALEX FAULKNER:
I'm learning, I'm learning like the rest of us I think that's the one big thing is that we have to learn our body needs, what our mental health and needs and what the we need to do for our career and development. Because I do take on a lot of projects. I want to keep challenging the rhetoric that happens with the industry, but I also have to work and make money too. And which is interesting because professors, sometimes I feel like they don't want you to work. They want you to just work on your artistic work. But I can't afford not to work outside of theatre. And that's also a big stress because I have to give myself to paying my rent, being able to buy groceries and then also being able to stay healthy and have me time. But what I like to do is I just meditate, which is something that's on the rise, especially in theatre, but it is healthy and it is good for you to be able to be with your body and your mind because technology takes that away from us. And there's a big demand of technology with teaching students now it's all about downloading the pdf off of Canvas and watching this video and watching that video. We don't take time to be with ourselves as we need to be. And that's one thing I try to do whenever I get the chance is just to go out and walk and just be with nature and clear my thoughts before I have to dive back into the demanding world of capitalism. And then also being a student.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I want to touch a little bit on what you were just talking about with technology as a student because I think the assumption is that all young people, that's all they want to deal with is their devices. What's in their hand, what's on that screen. Um, and I'm kind of hearing from you that that's not the truth. Do theatre teachers have a special responsibility in place and providing a space without that for you. Sometimes It's a challenge with technology developing and figuring out is it helpful and where is it harmful? Because I have a big bias towards paper. I love reading books. I love having the play in my hand and being able to write on it. And then being away from the fluorescent light that the screen just glares in your face and being able to be with the world because that's what theatre was founded on was the naturalism of nature. But technology is a lot more powerful than the students and then the teachers and it's going to stay regardless of how we like it. So I'm trying to find ways where I can take advantage of the technology and not let it harm me, but let it help me. And it's very different for every student because we all grew up with different levels of technology in our childhood.
ALEX FAULKNER:
And when it comes to classrooms, everyone loves new things. The classroom is always updating. Technology is always updating and we have to have the latest version of this because it helps our students become better for the world. But at the same time it doesn't help them become better for themselves. And I think it's good to take technology away every once in awhile and realize that it's doing something harmful and to acknowledge the addiction that technology brings with scrolling through mindless social media apps and to be able to use it where you can service yourself. And I do have a quote that talks about this that a UNCG alum student talked about. He said, "if you don't do things, they're not going to happen and they don't have to happen". And he talked about his experience where he found himself just sitting playing video games for hours and hours and being mad that he wasn't getting a job and he realized, well, I'm not getting a job because I'm not getting off my couch and turning the TV off and going out to keep my acting gears in motion. And also I'm not putting myself in the room, but also at the same time, technology is the new room for auditions and self tapes and, and even making your own short student film that is on the rise. But I think it just hinders us when we get to addicted to the instant gratification.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yeah. And it, and it's, it's more and more becoming more and more popular at the collegiate level that that's, that's the medium for, uh, your auditions for programs too, um, I know, I know our program at ISU we, it's, it's a, it's a backup if you can't come to one of the audition days because our acting faculty really love to work with you and meet you and just get to know you in the moment, which I think is really important. But that technology piece is it, it is a big presence and it is a thing at them right now. And we do have to deal with that. Um, the episode that is airing right before the one that I'm talking to you on a will, a Matt Webster specifically talks about the, the lack of empathy that, that we're seeing more and more in young people, um, in part due to the, the, the screens and, and, and that you can go on a screen, you can, you can say what you want with your thumbs and there's no, there's no recourse to it. But if you had to say those things to someone's face, you'd probably not say them or think twice about the words that you're saying.
ALEX FAULKNER:
What has your experience been with working as a teacher and then in the arts community as well with seeing the challenges of the norm and then the gender expectation onstage and offstage?
JIMMY CHRISMON:
When I was in the high school classroom, I was in, uh, I think I was in even in an even more conservative area than where, where you were in school with Mrs. Kuykendall. For me and I had, I had a pretty progressive principal with the expectation was that what was seen on stage for the public was safe and uh, not challenging the norms, but I was given permission with what I did in my classwork. I pretty much had free reign. We could explore much more challenging texts. We could have much more in depth conversations. I could see we could do scene work for much more challenging texts. And then of course in, in my playwriting classes, I gave the students free reign with what they wanted to write about. I told them as long as it didn't get me fired, we were good. Um, so, uh, I gave them, I was able to give them that space to explore and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that, that that's probably a good rule of thumb for most most classrooms, uh, theatre classrooms is that we kind of get to do what we want in those spaces and to create the space that we want our classrooms. When I moved up here to Illinois, it's not nearly as, I mean there are parts that are conservative but, but teachers get, I have heard of some productions with that I would have been fired for immediately for even putting it on my season. Full productions of Angels in America, in the high school. Um, Equus, uh, I mean really challenging beautiful works of theater that I could not have done. So I think students are ready for those conversations. Like you said, I think, I think they can handle them. I think we as teachers need to continue to, to better our level of understanding, to better our willingness to tackle more challenging topics that challenge the norm. And to not shy away from those conversations with our students. And uh, and like I think like you said, I think you hit the nail on the head was giving the space for that exploration and those discussions to happen.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Yeah, that's good. Because what I notice what hinders the creative process is the honoring of the playwright often gets in the way of gender expression and then gender non conforming students to be able to present, present themselves in specific roles. Because a lot of the old classic playwrights that we still see onstage every day never really sat down and thought about a non-binary actor being in their production, never thought about a queer black trans woman being in their production. And professors often want you to honor that the playwright never intended for you to work on their piece and then put you into the role where the playwright would look at you and immediately think you fit.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
And where I, where I applaud Mrs Kuykendall for giving you that space to do that. I think, I mean, for me as an actor even, I think there are things that I identify with. Um, like I, I'm, I am as a cis gay man, but I, there are definitely things, and it's going to sound like a stereotype, but there are things I identify with, with the characters and Steel Magnolias you know, I, I know those strong southern women, I grew up with them but, but there's also things that identify in those characters that I could bring to life too if I were to play those roles. And I think giving, giving a, a non-binary student, binary student a space to explore those things, what's wrong with that?
ALEX FAULKNER:
It may lose money. That's the thing is the audience members aren't going to like it and then you to be able to meet their quota for financial stability, which I get, I just hope that we get to more of a place where we are not afraid to lose our audiences and then we can give space for new audience members who will have a much more open minded thinking.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yeah, that's my hope as well. So for you Alex, what are your, um, cause I always ask what are your parting words of wisdom for new teachers coming into this field? But I think the question still stands what, what, what can new teachers and even old teachers as well just for those of us who've been doing it a while, what, what are some words of wisdom you can give us in um, in our teaching and as we learn to create more inclusive and open spaces for our students?
ALEX FAULKNER:
Don't be afraid to be a student with your students is the one big thing that I like I like to see with my teachers is that they acknowledge that they are not a power authoritive figure. That they are also working right beside us and not above us. Because that will help you discover more opportunities when you're working with your students and not just working for them.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
That was one of my favorite moments after probably my first couple of years of teaching was when I realized I don't know it all and I need to get off that stage and get down and work with them and learn with my kids and learn, learn new things with them and explore old things that I didn't know and, and just being a student with them again, I think that is very beautifully said. I think all teachers need to hear that.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Thank you.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yeah. Well Alex, I am very grateful for Mrs. K putting you in touch with me and uh, yes, I am grateful for the work that you are doing at UNC Greensboro as a proud alum. I, I appreciate, I appreciate the challenging and innovative things that you're doing there and I am only going to believe our world will be better for it as you continue to work and grow as an artist and challenge the norm out there. So thank you.
ALEX FAULKNER:
Yeah. Well thank you very much for having me.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I truly enjoyed my conversations with Briandaniel as well as Alex. They are doing amazing things with their students as well as a student of theatre that is planning to change the world. And I fully believe that they will do that. I hope you got a lot out of that. I know I did. As I chatted with them both and uh, I hope that we as theatre teachers can constantly remind ourselves that it is so important for us to continually be students of life and to be continually bettering ourselves and learning new things and challenging the things that we know to continue to better ourselves and create those better spaces for our students. Thank you so much for listening this week. Part three is coming up. It is an interview with Dr. Adam Carter who is a mental health specialist and uh, we'll be getting into about mental health as far as our LGBTQIA students as well as us, us, ourselves as teachers, and also what we can do as allies. Thank you again for listening. I hope that you will go on our website, www.thedtalks.com. Check out all of her archives, our transcripts and all of the resources from each of the teachers that have been on the show. Subscribe to THED Talks on your favorite podcast provider. Give us some stars by rating us, review us, tell us what you're liking, and then share the podcast with those students and those theatre teachers that you think could benefit from what I'm doing here on the show. You can find THED Talks on any of your favorite podcast providers, Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Google Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, Anypod. Tunein. Please contact me at THEDtalkspodcast@gmail.com if you'd like to give me any feedback, provide, uh, topics that you'd like to hear on the show or if you'd like to be a guest. There's also the listener survey that's out there. It's a Google form. Please check that out on all of our social media, which is Twitter @theatreedtalks, Tumblr, thedtalks.tumbler.com Facebook THED Talks. Find us on Instagram @thedtalkspodcast and of course our website, www.thedtalks.com. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Joel Hamlin and J oshua S husterman for the use of your original song "Magnetize." I'm looking forward to sharing part three of this series for PRIDE month. Thank you again for listening and, uh, c ontinue to do amazing things with your students.
