1.12 A Conversation with Matt Webster
This week Jimmy talks with his mentor Matt Webster. Matt has been a touring artist for children, a theatre education professor, a high school teacher, a consultant for Drama Teacher Academy at Theatrefolk, an actor, a director, a playwright, and a dad! He brings lots of great advice and food for thought for theatre teachers and theatre education majors this week from his years of experience!
Matt’s Recommended Resources:
https://www.theatrefolk.com/drama_teacher_academy
Utilize your local theatre artists and organizations
JIMMY CHRISMON:
You are listening to episode 12 of THED Talks with Jimmy Chrismon. THED Talks is a podcast for theatre teachers and theatre education students. Hi, I'm Doctor Jimmy Chrismon theatre education professor at Illinois State University. Each week I want to bring you stories and interviews from experienced K12 theatre teachers, current theatre education majors, and professors of theatre education that will warm your heart, renew your faith in teaching and provide resources to better your practice in your theatre classroom. Thank you so much for listening this week. We are wrapping up our first season here. Uh, we have one more episode after the lists that I am excited to bring you. It's a special pride episode where we talk with LGBT teachers and, uh, some other specialists in the field to help us with some, some tactics and strategies to continue to implement diversity in our classrooms as well as address those diverse students in our classrooms in appropriate and healthy ways. So I'm hoping that you will tune in for that special episode. Um, in about another week or two. Uh, so I hope you have a wonderful summer. I hope you are resting. I hope you are reading. I hope you are enjoying time with family and friends and traveling, um, and preparing yourselves to come back in August. I do hope you will join me back in August as we bring season two. I already have a fantastic lineup of teachers waiting to talk to me and I am eager to, to dig into those interviews and search chatting with them and bringing you more information, more collegiality, um, over the, the Internet and uh, just some more resources to continue to help you with your practice and bettering yourself as a teacher in the classroom. I think the podcast has shown me so far that that um, as isolated as we may feel in our school buildings at times, we're not alone. That there, there's a whole community of people out there. So I am, I'm grateful for the folks that I've spoken with for this first season and I'm looking forward to talking with those next season. If you have comments, suggestions, feedback for me, ideas for topics to talk about on the show, um, or if you'd like to be a guest, please email me at thedtalkspodcast@gmail.com. I always respond and I am eager to talk with people, so please reach out to me and let me know if you'd like to be a part of what we're doing here. This week I'm excited to talk to my mentor and guru Matt Webster. Uh, he was my theatre education professor at UNC Charlotte. He has done many, many things, uh, from touring with children's groups, to being a theatre education professor, to teaching high school, to being a teaching artist and traveling for Theatrefolk and The Drama Teacher Academy, he directs, he acts, he writes. There's not really anything that I don't think that Matt Webster can't do. He, uh, he means the world to me and, uh, again, he is part of my inspiration for doing this podcast and, and reaching out to teachers and providing a space for, for all of us to come together. So thank you Matt for all you've done for me. I do hope you enjoy my conversation with Matt. He has a lot of really good information, a lot of good advice and a, I hope you get a lot out of it. I'm excited to welcome to THED Talks, my mentor and guru from my undergrad program and he's been with me beyond that, um, coaching me and mentoring me to get my job at ISU as of most recently. Matt, I know you have been on, you've had a long journey and you've done many things. Um, kind of fill us in, kind of give us the, the Sparknotes version of your journey to where we are now.
MATT WEBSTER:
Um, I've been thinking about this because I've been listening to the podcast, loving the podcast, and when you talk about people and their journey and how they got there, it occurs to me that I teach theatre to young people and was a high school theatre teacher. I was a college professor of theatre education, but I did not take theatre in high school because there was not theatre in the high school that I went to. There was no theatre program and I actually came to theatre from speech and debate. Uh, there was a speech and debate program at my school and I got involved with that and ended up being pretty good at it. And because of that, I wanted to continue on in college. I started college as a history major and was doing speech and debate and I did interpretation and humorous interpretation and dramatic interpretation. And because of the interpretation, the speech coach said, well, you should go talk to the acting teacher. So I went and met the acting teacher. She's my mentor. She's a fantastic lady, a Doctor Amanda Sue Rudisill. We called her Susie Rudisill. And she worked with me a little bit and said, you should take an acting class. And so I went, okay, great. And I signed up for introduction to see it or thinking it was an acting class and she was like, no, that's not an acting class. Um, but because of it, as part of the way she had set the class up as a final you, they had to write a paper or take a test or work crew on a show. And I'm like, I don't want to write a paper I'll work crew on a show. So I worked on the costume crew for Three Penny Opera and was a great experience in some of the performers treated me great. And some of the performers treated me like a something they found on the underside of their shoe. And I said, you know what, next time I do this I'm going to be onstage and I'm going to show people how you go about treating people. And once I got on stage, that was it. I was done. I was hooked. So through that, through being onstage and, and working with Susie Rudisill, she also had a touring children's theatre company called the Imagination Players. And we did story theatre and Oh my gosh, this was just eye opening to me. And, and I, more than anything wanted to continue doing this. We'd tour out to elementary schools. We had like a three year waiting list of schools who wanted us to come and perform. I got to perform for child audiences and create for child audiences and said, this is what I, what I want to do and where I want to go from here. So I went on a to the University of New Mexico and got a degree in theatre education and then went onto the University of Hawaii and got a degree in theatre for youth. And from that degree I got hired as a professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, uh, and had a bunch of, uh, great experiences and, and success there, including meeting students like yourself and was there for 15 years and left that program to open a brand new high school and was able to put my stamp on that particular school, which was great because I really wanted to set the tone and the environment of, of what a high school program could be. And it was interesting, like I said, not having done high school theatre and not being involved with that personally and yet teaching as a college professor, teaching people how to be high school teachers seemed a little at times disingenuous potentially. And I wondered, Gosh, am I really saying the right things? Am I just talking out of my hat because I haven't done this? And when I went down to do it, I was very pleased to, to find out that I, thankfully I knew what I was talking about a little bit. So that was great. And um, and built that program up and really, really enjoyed that time as well and left the classroom about two years ago and have been able to now pursue other things like, uh, more directing and more playwriting and a little bit of acting here and there and also doing curriculum consulting work for the Drama Teacher Academy. So that's how I got to where I am now.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
What was that, um, the transition back into, or into a classroom like for you and what were some of the challenges and successes you've had with that?
MATT WEBSTER:
So in the college environment, the students want to be there for the most part. And it didn't really occur to me. There would be so many students who walked through the door who have no interest in theatre, who had been placed there via their schedule because they had a hole in their schedule because the counseling office was like, Oh, let's put you here. There we go. There's, there's room in there. And My, you know, I have such a love for theatre and I have such respect for theatre. My assumption was, well, everyone does. If you're in this classroom, you of course you love theatre, you've sought it out and you want to be part of it and NO that is not the case at all. There were people who were worse than averse, because being averse to theatres one thing, but they were in different. And working with indifference is the hardest thing you can do when they genuinely don't care. You can't make people care. So trying to find a way in and get those students interested, um, and it doesn't always work. One of the things that I teach, one of the things I talk about is if you have 30 people in your class, five, are going to love you no matter what. You can, they love theatre, they love to be there. They're going to love this no matter what. No matter how good or bad or whatever else, there's going to be five who hate it, no matter what you do, you could be on fire and they wouldn't spit on you to put you out. They don't care. They don't want to be there. And 20 people that can go either way. And you can't teach to the five who love you because you're going to lose the 25 others, right? And you can't teach to the five who hates you because you'll never get them on board and you'll lose the others as well. You have to teach to the 20 who could go either way. And you've got to find a way to get them engaged and excited. And once you get the balance of the class on your side, you'll start to feel the shift towards positive work in the classroom. And that becomes sort of an official, but that that's, that's a mistake I see a lot of beginning teachers do is that they go, oh, these are my safe kids. I'm going to, I'm going to teach to these kids and then the rest of the class falls apart or I'm going to rescue these five and they're going to love it. And they end up banging their head against a wall and it's very frustrating and it's easy to get burnt out that way. So early on it was recognizing that that's it, those, those large majority of students who may or may not be interested are who I have to work towards. And the other thing that was really shocking to me was how young they are. And you don't feel that until you haven't been down with that age group for awhile. But freshmen coming in, when I had new student orientation and freshmen were walking through the door, I'm like You're babies. Oh my gosh, you are a baby. And literally the wide eyed kind of, this is terrifying. High school is terrifying. Even the ones who came through a middle school theatre program, you know, this is the big leagues. There's a, there's a full auditorium theatre here and there's full theatre classes and they do big musicals and it's like, it's all a matter of perspective. So recognizing that those kids coming up couldn't do the, the, I don't want to say like the quality of work, but they couldn't meet the expectations that I had because quite frankly my expectations were collegiate level and they're not there. Literally, they're not there. And I had to to learn, okay, where do I, where do I come down to find them? How do I meet them at their level? You still want to challenge them, still want to push them beyond their comfort zone, but you don't want to set them up to fail. And so I had to reassess how I was going to set up my curriculum. I had to reassess how I could relate to these students and find the things that they're interested in, get them on board and then pull them along with me.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
My students are going to enjoy hearing that because this past semester I put as a, as a uh, clinical into my method, my junior and senior level methods class and we went up to Chicago and they taught a lesson in a school, in high school and they got there. They had already communicated with the teacher, you know, for good month ahead of time. They had their lesson plan, it was approved by the teacher and me and they got in the room and they were still thinking it was a collegiate level. And that was the great conversation on the way back home from, from Chicago was I didn't realize how much I needed to break it down and how, how much, I assumed that they knew and I'm like, Yup, you can't assume it.
MATT WEBSTER:
Right. And going back with your interview with Barbara Mager, you were placed with Barbara and I placed you with Barbara and one of the first students that I placed with her after, you know, going through the methods classes and the college creative drama classes and the higher level Ed thinking thing. And the fact that I had been immersed in college for 10 plus years as a student and the really high level creative and really high level analytical thinking and get my students ready, put a student in a classroom and sitting in the back of the classroom with Barbara and the person starts talking about the areas of the stage and I'm like, I rolled my eyes. I'm like, oh Geez. When was the last time someone talked about the areas of the stage? And then I went, oh, when I didn't know what it was. These people have never heard this. This is completely new to them. This is like breathing for me. This is, in my sleep I see the areas of the stage. But for these students, this is new, fresh, exciting information. And I had to kind of reset and I leaned over to Barbara and I was like, wow, okay. This is where we're starting from. And she said, yeah, this, we start at the ground level and we build up.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
You have, because I was part of one of your, um, probably one of your first plays that you wrote with Myths, Myths at the Edge of the World. Uh, talk to me about your, your experience as a playwright and, and the creation of your work and what that's like seeing it produced.
MATT WEBSTER:
It's really exciting and I, I do get to brag on you a little bit in a couple of ways in that, um, not only were you in the original production of the Myths at the Edge of the World, but you and I were actually on stage together in a play and there are not many people who I can say that about who I still have contact with. So that's really great that we were both on The Good Woman of Setzuan. And I very, very strongly remember the scenes you and I had together because it was a lot of fun and we really enjoyed that time on the stage. For Myths it was a project that I wanted to create when I first got to UNC Charlotte. And it was a collaboration with Pam Sofras who was the dance education faculty and Rita Shoemaker who was the art education faculty and we, and there wasn't a music education faculty at the time, or we'd have pulled that person in, but we wanted to create a work where we could combine these art forms and create a project or a product on stage that would be good for all of our combined students. And so we, we went out and we created the concept and I took the ideas and went and wrote the ideas and we brought it back to the stage and we cast it and did it and then took it out on tour and got very good feedback from that. And it was great. And then it sat on my computer for 20 years, almost until I finally went, you know what, I should probably start sending some of these scripts out. And I sent the script out and it got picked up immediately and I was stunned. I'm like, Dang, I should've done this sooner. And then what was really fun and really fantastic is that the first person who picked it up to produce it was one Jimmy Chrismon, uh, down at South Pointe High School. And not only that, but you invited me to come down and work with your students. And what was really great and touching and wonderful for me was that I got to work with what I considered to be the educational equivalent of my grandchildren. So, you know, my students, my students are my immediate kids and then their students are my grandkids. So I got to work with students who you had trained and it was great for me to see how your process had evolved and come through and worked out and to see how these students were approaching this material. And as a playwright you have in your head what a piece looks like and how a piece is performed. And then as a playwright director, you get to kind of wear both hats, which is good and bad because sometimes you look at what you wrote as a director and go, that's awful. What was I thinking? There's no way that that's gonna work and that particular show, people have said that's a hard show. That show is difficult to stage because I didn't necessarily write it for the general population. I wrote it for me and I wrote it for us at the time and you know, it was part of this big collaboration but it's been picked up and done since then as well. And I'm very grateful to the people who have done it and I'm very grateful for the response that it's gotten in the interest of its gotten. Um, and it's given me the opportunity to do more writing and have had another play published since then. And that one is a much easier play by design because I have a better understanding, especially after working in the high school environment for awhile. The limitations, the pros and the cons. And so creating works that were genuinely beneficial for an average typical high school theatre teacher was a different kind of challenge but a really fun challenge and one that allowed me to kind of work within the structures and the strategies to say you've got limited resources, you've got um, a large number of students. You have students who are absent on and off and therefore you need to, you can't, these five people have to be here everyday or the show can't be done. Well that show's not getting done. Okay. Cause they're not all gonna be there so you to, you have to work around those different challenges and in the end still come up with something that's relatable to the students and, and fun and worth for the program, worth the programs time to do so. And that way it's, it's been really beneficial. The background that I've had in working both of the collegiate level for some of the higher level thinking and the high school level for what are the logistics, what are the practical applications that theatre teachers have to address when they go to put a show together? They can't all be the big spring musical. You're not always working with those higher level students. Sometimes you need work that freshmen and sophomores beginning and intermediate theatre students can, can sink their teeth into and have success at. And that idea of success is really an important one. You've got to give them work they can succeed. It can't be too easy. They can't roll through it, but also you don't want them to walk away going, that was a failure. I didn't do well at that because that doesn't help anybody.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
If someone wants to find your work, I believe it's on Theatrefolk, isn't it?
MATT WEBSTER:
They're on Theatrefolk, yeah. They're both published through Theatrefolk. Yep.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I know you have, when you were, when you were teaching the high school, uh, you did, you had a really special program, uh, with um, exceptional learners that you were able to implement and your students, you and your students. But took great pride in, can you talk a little bit about that, what you did with that and, and um, how you made all those students, um, feel that success you were just talking about?
MATT WEBSTER:
Absolutely. And I take great pride in that as well, but this is something that literally fell into my lap and, and, and we just made it work and it ended up working beautifully. In the first year. I was at Rocky River, which was the high school that I was at. I got a knock on my door one afternoon, open it up in a very sweet lady standing there and she says, hi, I'm Miss Lake I'm from the EC program, exceptional children program and, and we're working on a play and we're wondering if maybe you'd like to help us so you can help us. And I'm like, sure, absolutely. What are you guys working on it? She said, Hamlet and I went for, my kids aren't doing Hamlet yet. What the heck? And what what we, so what started out as me coming and watching the work that she was doing with her kids with these amazing adapted scripts, which is kind of the first foundational issue that, that we'd want talk about. The adapted scripts are scripts that she and her colleagues wrote. They took the story of the script that they were working with, cause we did Hamlet, we did Christmas Carol, we did A Thousand Cranes and they adapted the script. They simplified the language and then in some place they use pictograms in addition to the words. So the students who weren't terribly strong at reading could still follow along and use the pictogram to continue on in the sentence and understand what was going on. And the script allowed her students to study the material and learn the material. And then she, she got them up on stage, she got costumes them, they loved the costumes, they loved the props. And I looked at that and that first year and said, I want to be part of this. And I think this will be valuable for my students as well. So in the next year I started using my intermediate students, my level two students as buddies for these performances. And she would pick a script or we would work together to figure what we wanted to perform. Her students were considered the actors and my students were considered the buddies and as we would talk about it, we were the experts and we were the buddies, but it was our job to make them look good. We are not center stage, so we would rehearse with them. There would be a buddy assigned to each actor. The actor would have their script or they'd study their script in class and then they'd come and rehearse with us on the stage. And the job of the buddy was to literally stand on the shoulder of the actor, script in hand, help them follow along in the script, help them remember where they're blocking is, give them examples of how to say things and that's something that we found was really useful. That when you need to be really excited, like when you say it, say it like this, and then they, they model and they demonstrate how to move or how to speak. And that was very helpful to the actors because then they could just mimic, they could repeat it and it looked great and everyone was really excited about it. So my students would pair with them, they'd assist them with their lines, they'd assist them with their blocking. And then when it came time for the performances, the actors would be dressed in costumes and color and great things. And my students would be dressed in black and would work to, to disappear as much as possible. They stood out there with the students because for some of these students it took them awhile just to get used to, to being on stage in general. But then they got to like it, and they got to enjoy it. But any changes that occurred once the lights came on, that changed a little bit. If the sound was there in the sound was loud, that could have an effect on the students. And suddenly when we started getting audiences and then we started getting big audiences, there were times that some of the actors would, would freeze up. They'd get scared and they'd freeze up. And so it was up to their buddy to start the line to get them starting to say the line. And if they couldn't finish the line to buddy would say it for them. And it was enough for the students, for the actor to simply stand on stage and, and be part of things. So even if they completely froze up and were very scared, they still got to be involved in what was happening. And most of the time, once they started talking, once they, they repeated the things that we've been rehearsing, it kicked in and they did great. And, and once again, when it was all said and done, when the, when the bows and applause came out, my student's job was to walk those students out on stage and disappear because this is not our show. We are, we are the supporting cast. We are here to make these students look good and do the best they can do. And, uh, in the first year we just had a couple people from the school who came and looked, the next year we have people from the district office who heard about it, came down to watch the performance that we did. The third year they started inviting people and we had about 125 people who came from other schools to see as well. In the fourth year, the EC programs from the five schools in the east district of Charlotte came. And we had 300 people in the audience to see the show and including district high level people coming out, the press and, and all kinds of people. And in the last two years that we did it, there's a school in Charlotte called the Metro School, which is a strictly EC school. It's a school for the most profoundly challenged students. And those students couldn't come to see us at our school. They're very vocal. They can't sit still, you know, the flood of challenges are dealing with, so the last two years we toured our show to them as well. So it was this amazing opportunity for an entire audience of students to see people who look like them, people who they can relate to be performing on stage because there's something transformational about that. Seeing someone who looks like you and sounds like you represented on the stage, gives a level of value to people that you don't realize if it's never happened to you. Seeing yourself validated on stage by a performer is an incredibly uplifting experience and gives you the opportunity to see what can be, and allowing my students to, to be part of that and to let those students create that for their peers was incredible. And the thing that I loved the most out of all of them, there were a of things I loved about that. But the thing is that I love the most is that outside of my classroom, I would look in the hallways because at the end of my hallway was where the EC classes were, and when my students were in the hallway, not even in theatre or on the way to theatre, but just walking through the hallway and EC students were walking in the hallway, they'd say hi to each other. They give each other hugs, they give each other high fives. That the bond that they made as performers onstage, the bond that they made in my classrooms spilled out beyond the classroom and it was a great source of pride for the EC students that they had friends who were in the theatre program. It was great source of pride for the theatre kids. They have friends in the EC program, so it was just beneficial for everyone involved. It was a great, great program.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
It just sounds just really special for everyone involved. When you spoke with my my my methods class a couple months ago and you talked about that and that is one of the things that many of them have come back to me talking about how did he do that? What, can you talk to me a little bit more about that? And I'm like I can give you his information cause I didn't do it but he'd be happy to tell you I'm sure. So thank you for sharing that.
MATT WEBSTER:
Absolutely. Yeah and it really to those to be inspired to do such things, I would give a couple of of pointers, a couple things. First and foremost, you do need really good dedicated, qualified, special ed teachers that you're working with because there are needs and there are challenges and you will not be trained and prepared for it and some of them can be dangerous for those students and you never want to put those students in danger. But you're dealing with students who have physical, literal physical disabilities that if they're going up and down stairs on the stage, you have to be careful with that. You have students with severe emotional disabilities and you do not want to put them in a situation where they can, you know, break down and really be injured and bothered by that. And so having the teachers there that I'm working in very, very close proximity with, um, to, to work on that side of, of the relationship while I'm working on the theatre side of the relationship is incredibly important and something that needs to be addressed. You to just try to go in and take over. It doesn't work that way. It truly has to be a, a unified kind of symbiotic relationship between those two. And then with that as well, my students needed to completely understand what their responsibilities were in watching out for these students and helping these students and what they need to do. So once that got established and got solidified, things worked really well, but I, it can be very daunting. And there were times when I would, I would simply step back and let the EC teachers and the special ed teachers take over because they understood those students better. And I tried to learn from watching how they worked with them, how they spoke to them, to give me a clue on the best way to, uh, to move forward with these students and to give those students what they needed in that moment. So that's, that's the really strong starting point.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
And this, this, this kind of is a great segue into my next question for you about, this was one fantastic way that you put into practice words that you told us all the time when I was, when I was at UNCC was that the best way to build and to keep your program going is to make yourself invaluable to the school. What other, what are some other ways teachers can do that if they are finding the, they're finding it challenging to do that in their buildings and are wanting to elevate their program and, and, and elevate the importance of their program in their school.
MATT WEBSTER:
Well, one of the traps that theatre teachers get caught up in is that we, we lock ourselves in the theatre and that's our, our fifedom and our kingdom. And that's where we belong. And that's what we do and leave us alone. And, and you know, this is where I want to live and that's great and everything. But when you do that, it's really easy to be forgotten and it's really easy to be compartmentalized and to say, yeah, they're theatre people, they're over in the theatre. We didn't know what they do. It doesn't matter. And in that way, it's easy to be gotten rid of and it's easy to be left out and it's easy to be looked down upon. So you have to find those ways to push yourself out into the general theatre curriculum and working with the EC program. Absolutely one of the ways you can do that. Working with the English program, really working with any other, um, aspect of the curriculum is beneficial. But what I tell a lot of students coming up through programs and people who are new teachers is when you look at your season, walk over to the English department and say, what are you guys studying? What's in your curriculum? Is there a story, a book or something that I might be able to take and find a play that I can put as part of my season that we can link together. So you're studying the Holocaust, fantastic. You're studying the Holocaust in history. Great. So now I can go to the history program and say, Hey, I'm going to do a show called, I Never Saw Another Butterfly or Kindertransport or any number of plays that deal with this that are appropriate for school aged kids, but that deal with the content that they're studying and that give them the opportunity to come at it from a different direction. And now I'm working with them to write educational guides. I'm working with them to, uh, to have a special night where maybe we can find someone from the community, from, from the Jewish Defense League to come and talk about the Holocaust and we make it a big school wide event. I was going to do a play anyway, you know, I get to pick and choose which play I want to do. Why not pick one that allows me to reach out across the school and then consequently reach out outside out of the school? Across the community and making that connection suddenly increases my visibility in the school and causes people to sit up and take notice. Same thing with English. You're studying this book you're studying To Kill a Mockingbird. Great, let's do To Kill a Mockingbird and maybe we've already done To Kill a Mockingbird, but towards that end we're not going to do the whole show again, but we're going to study it in theatre class now and we're going to break the script down theatrically and look at it from a different angle that the English teacher can send their students and maybe we have a combined class one day or I send the theatre kids and they do scene work from that show and it raises the conversation to a level of, oh, that's what they were saying. Oh, that's what they were talking about. Oh, I didn't understand what that looked like until I saw it. And once again, now you've come out of your little cubbyhole in the theatre and the English teacher is going to Admin and going, oh my gosh, we did a project with theatre that was amazing. The kids loved it. And the history department comes down and says, oh, the kids understood like they've never understood before because the theatre teacher did this thing and now you have given the administration something to brag about and that's what I like to talk about. You want to give them something to brag about, which by the nature of the shows that we do for the public, you should be doing that anyway. But once again, those are easy to ignore, but when you start to have an impact on the curriculum and better still, if you can take it out into the community and get the community involved in what's going on in that school in a positive way, principals love that. Principals eat that with a spoon because if there's any kind of positive press, because they get the negative press when there's a fight in school, when a weapon is found on campus that you know, they've got to fight that thing off. And one of the things that makes them happier than anything is when they can hang that newspaper article about the outreach program that the performing arts did or that um, these students went to a theatre competition and won certain awards. And so, you know, here's some hardware they can put in the school and go to bragging rights with other principals. Anything that you can do to up your visibility and to reach across the curriculum will be beneficial, not just to you and your program and your students, but it'll be beneficial to the school as well. And the school will start looking at their arts program in a different light. It's not an extra that we tag on and stick in a corner and let them do their thing. It's integral to the education we're providing to our students and it's valuable to everyone in our community. And that's what we want them to think. That's how we want them to view us. And we can't do it sitting in the dark theatre by,
JIMMY CHRISMON:
When I, when I started at South Pointe, we had, I had a fantastic principal for my entire time there, but we had several assistant principals that came through. And in those first couple of years I knew my principal had my back. I knew my principal supported everything that I was doing. There was this one assistant principal though who was not won over. And, uh, when we first got there, he did everything he could to make life hard. And I, I, I don't know if it was intentional and I'm going to assume because he is a good man, that it wasn't, but, but that was what happened. Um, he didn't get what we did down on my hall with chorus and band and, and I mean, the band look great on Friday nights with the football game, but he didn't know what the rest of us did. By the time he left, he was one of our biggest advocates because he eventually saw, he saw me doing that. He saw me reaching out. He saw the greater impact that my program was having and he was he, he started coming to my shows. He started telling people to come see the show and, and uh, and, and he started dropping in my room just to observe because he wanted to see a good lesson. He didn't want to catch me in anything. He wasn't even writing anything up. He just wanted to sit and watch it. Um, so I, I appreciate that advice you gave many years ago and it's still, it's still part of what I do even now because it's important for us to not only advocate for ourselves but to, to, to put our program out there and advocate for the program as well.
MATT WEBSTER:
And that's something that I learned going into the high schools because I had the opportunity to mentor teachers down in the high school as well in my, my, my peers. And it was interesting to see the different levels of teaching and the different strategies of teaching. And you know, for a lot of beginning teachers, they, they know what they know. And so you get your very lecture based and people sitting in straight rows and standing up at the board kind of writing. And you know that as an administrator whose responsibility is to walk into classrooms all day, every day, observing, writing down, you're seeing a lot of the same stuff. And suddenly you walk into a theatre classroom and at its best it looks like organized chaos. At its best it looks like everybody is bouncing off the walls and, and at the, at the very, you know, at its core it's dynamic.
Speaker 4:
It's exciting. It's, it's what's happening here? And if as a teacher you can say to that administrative person, no, no, they're not out of control. They're very specifically doing work. And in fact, you clap your hands twice, everyone claps twice and they go quiet and suddenly the guy's eyes get big. Like how did that happen? Because we know what we're doing. Thank you very much. And then you know, thankfully you know those days when you were doing, like scene worker or monologues and admin comes in on those days, you're like, yes. Because if the students are really prepared, those admins see things they see in no other classes and you've got to know they love going into the music room when they're getting ready for a performance because you get to hear good music, you love to go into the art room when people are making art because here's something unique and interesting. It's not kids sitting in desks in rows half out of their mind with boredom taking notes. It's active and it's involved and it's higher level learning. And you're right, Jimmy, that we need to advocate for ourselves. We need to understand the value of what we're doing and be able to articulate that value to people who don't understand it. Because once we do and they do understand it, it improves our standing not just in the school but in the curriculum. And that's, that has real impact.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I want to shift gears just a touch and, and talk about your, because I know, I know you have done a lot of, of directing and acting kind of all over the place in the Charlotte area, um, in the last few years. So what value do you see in, or do you see value in a teacher looking for those artistic outlets outside of what they're doing with their students?
MATT WEBSTER:
Absolutely. That's a great point. And the same way that we get trapped in our theatre space and, and that sort of a fight. We get trapped in our classroom and we get trapped in and being labeled as a theatre teacher, which is great. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that great sense of pride. But what we do is, as I said just a minute ago, is dynamic. What we do touches real hot points of creativity and, and emotional vulnerability and analysis and creative thinking and these things that fuel us and excite us and really get us up in the morning and, and wanting to do more. And one of the things I learned as an actor is that if you're the best actor onstage in every show you're in, you'll never get better. You have to be on stage with people who are better than you. You have to, and it's okay to be the best. sometimes, that's fine. You carry the show, that's cool, but you need to be in places where you look at the people around you and go, Dang, I've got to up my game. There are people here who are working harder. There are people here who are making bigger choices and now I'm challenged and inspired to do the same. I'm, I shouldn't be intimidated by this. I should be challenged. It's like, okay, yeah, all right, let's go. Let's bring it up. And I think the same thing happens with directing that when you work with students and you have great students and sometimes they're exceptional students who who are Broadway quality, but for the most part you're working with the people who who need training. That's what they are. Therefore that's your job. You're helping them become good actors or better, actors or, or good performers and as such there's only so far they can go. You're taking them a step at a time and maybe when they leave you, if they go into college, they get to work with someone who takes them even further and then they get to move on to someone who works professionally with them and really takes it to the next level. But you laid the foundation. But you don't get the chance to start working on things that are next level. You don't get to use the kind of vocabulary and the kind of um, strategies and skill sets that challenge you as a director or challenge you as a performer. So the opportunity to go work with a different group of people, a different skill level of people, a different age of people gives you the opportunity to go, oh, okay. I've been doing it this way for so long. It seems like the only way to do it. But, this way is not going to work with these people. So I better find another way to do it. Or what I thought would take two weeks has taken two days because these people are on board, they are prepared they are, you know, so no cool. All right, well now I've got to roll things forward and raise my stakes and raise the game and you know, or I'm going to get steamrolled on this and I do not want that to happen. So being able to go out into the community gives you a different pool of people to work with, which could challenge you on multiple different ways and should also provide a level of interest and and newness that should recharge you a little bit. It's really easy to get burnt out in the classroom. And for theatre teachers especially, you know Barbara Mager, I can't remember if she talked about this, but she would do 20 some shows a year, which was mind blowing. When you think about what it takes to mount one show and when what you're doing is spending 12 hours a day at school between classes during the day in rehearsal in the afternoon and grading papers that it's really easy to get burned out and it's really easy to get tunnel vision on what's happening. So being able to step out of that, to be an adult among adults, to be an artist among artists is a way to recharge. And the great part is you can take that new information and that new found energy and bring it right back to your students and, and give them something new and get them charged and excited as well. So it's a win win all the way around.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Uh, I want to take, to jump onto what you just said with about burnout and taking care of yourself. Through your experience as a teacher, as well as a teacher of teachers and watching, watching young teachers grow and develop what, what are some things that you did or that you can recommend for teachers to take care of themselves emotionally and physically so that burnout doesn't happen.
MATT WEBSTER:
When I was an Undergrad, I was in theatre up to my eyeballs. I, I just immersed myself completely every show onstage, backstage and got to be my junior year starting into my senior year and I'm, I was getting that kind of glazed look in my eye and one of my professors, God bless her, came up and said, you look in a little wiped out. And I'm like I feel kind of wiped out. She says, well what do you do for fun? I said, theatre. She went, no, no, no. You have to find something besides the theatre to do. You have to leave this space in order to come back and appreciate this space. And it was very useful, helpful information. And it saved me from probably walking away from theatre because it was really getting to the point where I, I can't do this anymore. This, I'm exhausted physically, emotionally, creatively. I'm exhausted, so I stepped out and went, well let me try watercoloring let me try sports of some kind, let me take walks or, or whatever the case may be. But just get out, clear your head, clear the space. And once again, theatre teachers we're so dedicated to our students we're so dedicated to our program, we're dedicated to the show. Sometimes we forget to be dedicated to us and sometimes we forget to be dedicated to our family, which is also, it's sad to say, but it's truth, you know, we get wrapped up and, and we know that our family will love us no matter what. But if we don't handle the props in the show, they're not getting done. And so that choice was made. And the fact of the matter is that theatre will be there and you need to take care of yourself. If you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anyone else. And there are a lot of people who need you. There are a lot of people who want your time. There are a lot of people who, who it feels like if you can't do it, it won't be done for them. And Gosh, what will the outcomes be? But the sun will come up the next day and at some point you have to make a choice. And one of the things that I say is life trumps theatre. And there will be times when you have to say, I love theatre. I love my kids, I love the show, I love all of this. But I gotta step away. My family needs me, my children need me. I need a weekend where I'm not grading papers or answering emails or painting scenery so I can just clear my head and make it through the next part of my life. And when teachers get burnt out, it's because they don't do that. It's because by the time they realize that it's too late, they've, they have burnt themselves to a crisp. They don't have it anymore and they're getting irritable in class or they're, they're becoming indifferent in class because they don't have the time or the energy. Um, they, when they look at the next season, it fills them with dread. Right. I mean, that should never happen. Um, the new group of students comes in and you're like, Eh, all right, great. You, you can't let it get to that point. So when you feel yourself starting to get to that tipping point, step away, give yourself the time. Here's the thing that I found that's really exciting. Students understand. Students understand completely. They might be a little bent out of shape at first, but if you explain to them and you share with them, guys, if I'm going to do this and we're going to be successful, I need some time. Y'All know what it feels like to get burnout. Y'All know what it feels like to be tired. You know what it's like when finals are coming and grades are coming and shows are coming and you can't do it anymore. I'm at that point, I need to step away for a while and every time the students have gone, yeah, okay great. We'll be here. We'll, in fact, we'll pick up some of the stuff for you. We'll, we'll hold rehearsals on our own. We'll, we'll bring in parents and start building scenery. We'll do what needs to be done. And suddenly you realize you don't have to do it alone and it'll get done. And if it doesn't get done, the sun will come up tomorrow. It's not the end of the world. I'm reminded of a joke that I love to tell, which is two brain surgeons are working on a brain and they're deep in the middle of the surgery, deep down in this guy's brain and one of them slips and he's like, oh, oh my, oh no. Oh, oh, just the worst. That's a terrible and the and goes, hey, calm down. It's not theatre.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Um, I have kind of a two part two similar questions so you can tackle them however you'd like to. What do you see as the greatest need in students? Cause I know you still work with young people still. Um, what, what do you see as their greatest need that we as theatre teachers can help them with. And then from your perspective, because you've seen, you've seen and you've seen it, all that, what are the, what are the biggest challenges facing young and new teachers?
MATT WEBSTER:
Well, let me start with the young people and what I see more and more and it makes me feel like "you kids get off my lawn" old. What I see when I work with young people on shows is how much they crave community that is not coming out of a screen. That the ability to talk with someone in real life, to laugh with, someone, to listen to, music, to dance with them, to work with them on stage, to cry with them, to just be part of a physical community, of real people in real space. I fear is under threat because of technology and because of the fact that I have 4,000 followers, I have a lot of friends. I never talk to anyone, but I've got a lot of friends. And when I see young people in the theatre and when I see young people working with each other and enjoying each other's company and being young and being alive and appreciating the fact that they're with other people, it does my heart good and I see a difference and a change in them. And I also see how using theatre to teach things that are being lost, not like memorization and things like that. Although that is part of the problem that people aren't required to memorize things anymore. They don't need to, it's all on their phone and as a skill, it's a valuable skill in the same way with the speaking and interpersonal communication. Now I do it with my thumbs. No, that's not how this works. And if you don't understand the skills and you're not comfortable with the skills, you're not going to get better at it. But the biggest issue that I see, and it really is frightening for me at some level, is a lack of empathy because everything is so distant because everything exists past a screen. I mean, there's a reason that the idea of trolling exists, just because I'm anonymous and I can say something nasty and ugly and spiteful, and I don't have to see the reaction of the person I've said it too. I can be smug in my own little worlds and hit send and go, ha, look how clever am. Screw you. And if you do that to another person's face, you would not feel the same way. And the idea of empathy is something that I fear is under threat in modern society. And one of the huge values that I see in theatre and the performing arts in general is that idea of empathy. When you play a character that's bullied and you understand the feelings that you have as that bullied character, are you going to go out and be a bully after that? It's highly unlikely. If you play a person who was isolated and sad and lonely and you start to see people around you who look like you are feeling and are playing, you can't sit there and say, I don't see what that is. I don't recognize what that is. You have to recognize it and hopefully you have to do something about it. Go say hi, go sit down. Go invite them to sit with you, whatever the case may be. So this idea of interpersonal relationships between people and empathy with other human beings is something that I take great pride in helping young people understand and recognize and embrace. Because without it, I fear, I fear for humanity. I fear for society and I, I think it's an alarm that needs to be raised and hopefully we recognize and we can say to our students, I'm not just teaching you how to be an actor. I'm not just teaching you how to analyze scripts. I'm not just teaching you how to paint the scenery. I'm teaching you literally how to be a better human being and how to relate to human beings in a more genuine and open way and be empathetic to the people around you. Because if you leave my classroom with that, I will have had such an impact on your life and on the world in general that I can get up and do this again tomorrow with a smile on my face. So that's something that, that I see that young people need, that we're providing. And I think it's really helpful for us not to sugarcoat it either.Because when I told my students that I watched their eyes get really big and the understanding that clicked on that, it was like, oh, okay, that is important. That is valuable. I wasn't thinking in those terms, but now you are in and great, we're all on board. So that's what I would say for the value for young people and what they need. And for teachers, the challenge of of meeting students where they are. And you came up through just the end of No Child Left Behind as I recall just you were kind of at the tail end of that and then from there we went to Race to the Top and now whatever is going on now, God help us all. I don't know. But the way, the way the educational system has shifted over the past 20 years has made it more difficult for teachers, especially new teachers coming in to understand the base necessities of students and young people and the importance of the relationship that you build with the students and young people. Everything is so testing and assessment based. We forget about the relationship. We forget about the importance and the value of saying hello. Of knowing a little bit about your students, that their, their parents were in the hospital and they just got out, that their grandmother came to visit, that they love rugby, whatever the case may be. When you make those connections, it has a huge impact on those students and that impact comes back to benefit you later when you need their attention, when you need them to, to invest in what's going on, well you've already invested in them so they feel like they can give back. If it's a strictly I stand up here and vomit information, you need to write it down and regurgitate it back to me. Unfortunately that model in that method doesn't work anymore and we're still in the technological age. There's also the screen separation and a lot of teachers are looking to bring technology into the classroom and that's great. There are ways to make technology in the classroom useful and valuable, but once again, it's another barrier between you and the people you're working with and, and the relationship needs to be there first and foremost. And that's what I would like young teachers to know, and to recognize. You have to build those relationships. Everything comes from that, from the discipline in your classroom to your, your students trusting you and being involved in products and productions and performances. Um, all of that comes from the relationship. And in addition, we as teachers, we're the front line, you know, when we have students who are in crisis, the theatre teacher, the art teacher, the music teacher, those are the ones that those students come to because of that relationship. One of the things that I'm most proud of and also most shocked by, I was at Rocky River High School for six years. And in that time I prevented two suicides that were literally days away, or hours away from happening. And it was because I talked to a student who I knew who had a great relationship with, who was normally up and peppy and you know, had a certain kind of persona. And I saw something in that persona that was not right. And said, and asked, are you okay? What's wrong? And because of the relationship with the students the tears come out, the fear, the, you know, it was just me and them, you know, close the door. Not all the way. Cause you gotta be careful with that stuff too. But you know, make it a safe space. Make it a private space, let them talk to you and then go get them help. Right? Don't, also as a theatre teacher, don't hold that all the time. You need to get them help and you need backup with that as well. But that idea that you are the safe space, you are the, the soft place to land you are aware, they turn is something that takes time and that you have to take seriously. So new teachers and once again that you don't, you don't get taught that in education, in classes, you don't get taught that in theatre classes you don't realize that until you're standing in your classroom with a student in tears sobbing because a boyfriend or girlfriend broke up with them because they, they didn't make a team because of parent died or a divorce as occurring. You don't know until that moment how valuable and important your relationship with that student is, that it is literally a lifeline and being aware of that is, going in, is going to help you as you address and deal with those students early on. As you build those relationships and build, you're talking back and forth and it's going to help your students as well to recognize this as a person who cares. This is a person who trusts me and who I trust and therefore I can share with them things I have not shared with other people but that I desperately need to say. So for new teachers, being aware of that is something that I think will be very valuable and potentially a little scary. You have to have to deal with it, right, but it's going to happen. It's going to happen. As a theatre teacher, it's going to happen. You are going to be the place where that student turns to for help. And you need to be prepared to help them in the best way you can.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Which I wish, and I don't know how you could have taught us that beyond what you just said to us, but I wish that was something I knew going into this. I wish that was something that I could better teach to my students now because they ask what if, all the what if situations of what if, what if this happens? And I'm like, I don't know. You, You've, you've got to know your kids. You've got to love your kids. You've gotta be in the moment with them. And I can't tell you what to do in those moments because I'm not there. So yeah,
MATT WEBSTER:
And what I did tell you guys was that there things I can't teach you. There are literally things that I can't teach you. And, you're learning the same thing now. We can talk about it until the cows come home. But each student is different. Each student is unique. Each situation will be unique and different. And what worked with this one student this one time will not work with this student this time. And that's why the relationship you build with your students is the most important thing you can do. That's what everything else will be built on.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yes. Yes. What is a, what's a favorite, uh, story that, uh, from, from your long career that you can, can share with us? It was a funny moment, a, an impactful moment, a, a horror story that you learned something from.
MATT WEBSTER:
There's a lot of stories out there. Um, You know, so one of the first one that comes to mind, going back to the Imagination Players and uh, the, the work that we did with that touring story theatre group in my undergraduate where I really fell in love with theatre for youth and theatre with young people. There was a production of the Star Bellied Sneetches that we would do. And we had done our production. We were wrapping up and the teacher came out and grabbed our director, grabbed Susie Rudisill and said, you've got to come see this. So Susie went back in and the kids had set up their own, uh, machine, their own Star Bellied Sneetch machine, and they were, they were putting themselves back and forth through the machine. And there was a kid who was being Sylvester McMonkey McBean, who is the, uh, shyster character who sets them all up and takes all their money. And the teacher said that student has never spoken in class. That student has never raised their hand. That student has never been involved with anything before. And they stood up and wanted to be Sylvester McMonkey McBean. And just that sense of we did it, we made a connection in a way. Yay. That, that no one else had made was always really impactful for me. Knowing that for, for some students, this was, this was life changing. This was the first, this was amazing. And then classroom stuff, so many classroom things happening. You know, one of the things that I loved in the classroom was kind of going back and forth with my students and treating the students like people, uh, you know, there were not equal, we can't be, we shouldn't be, but I can still treat you with respect and, and come at you where you live and you know, try to do rap battles and try to, you know, just try to, to play and do things that uh, that had an impact for them and with them. Those, those were great memories. Those were great times that I have.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
What's a resource that you have used or use a that you want to recommend that that we have in our teaching lives?
MATT WEBSTER:
Well, a lot of people have talked about it on here and I'm really thrilled and excited that they are. But The Drama Teacher Academy through Theatrefolk is a really valuable, useful resources on a lot of different levels for community, for materials, for lots of stuff. It's a real lifeline for a lot of teachers and that's great and I'm really happy to, to work with them and create content for them as well. The people talked about the Brigham Young Library. And that's another great resource. And honestly, I think people have talked about it here, maybe I've looked at another space. Reach out to your community and your community theatre spaces as well. Sometimes for technical support and sometimes just for, once again, that idea of stepping away from your little enclave of the world and reaching out and, and getting ideas, getting support, getting some, some valuable input from outside spaces. Because oftentimes we're cut off from the spaces and we need those lifelines. We need help too as teachers, we need other adults to talk to. We need other professionals and creative people who, who understand what we're going through. So reach out there as well. And I would say that's a valuable resource
JIMMY CHRISMON:
And you've given lots of wonderful wisdom and encouraging ideas. But do you have any parting words of wisdom to new teachers or any teacher in the field currently?
MATT WEBSTER:
The one thing that I usually say to new teachers that they find very useful, and I think it's kind of funny that they do, but I understand it, is that the first year you learn where the bathrooms are and that's it. If you manage that, you have had a successful first year. If you stay one step ahead of your students and your planning and your prep and your lesson planning and you're writing, you're doing good. The first year of teaching is incredibly hard. And as we were talking about earlier, there are things I can't teach you. There are things Jimmy can't teach you. There's things that no one can teach you until you're out there and you do it on your own. And it's hard. So the first year you learn where the bathrooms are and the second year you start to refine your work. And if you remember things and you fix things and you fine tune, and then the third year it starts to be fun. And which isn't to say you won't have fun in the first and second year, but it takes time. So give yourself the time to learn. Give yourself the freedom to make mistakes and to fail. In the same way we love our students, even when they fail and when they fail, it's an opportunity for us to teach them how to stand up, dust themselves off, move forward, and get better. The same applies to us. What would you tell your students if the student were in the place you are right now?
JIMMY CHRISMON:
And I think much crazy and as much wrong as there is in our education system and, and teacher evaluation. I think that's one of the strengths of most evaluation systems of new teachers is that you do get a couple of years.
MATT WEBSTER:
Right.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
They, they know you're, there's, there's gonna be times that you fail. They know there's gonna be times they're not as successful and they know they're going to be hard times. So they give you time to grow and to evaluate that growth. Um, so thank you for reminding me of that. Cause I remember you telling me that
MATT WEBSTER:
Absolutely, and you can't be super hard on yourself. You know, I very vividly remember talking to another cohort of theatre ed students at UNCC who are out and an afterschool program and they put their lessons together and they did the lesson with kids and it was a disaster. It just went badly from top to bottom, Pokemon badly we can say. And when it did, when we came back for a post talk afterwards, they were all down and dejected and looking like dogs had been beaten. I'm like, what's the problem? And they said that was horrible. We, we, it was the lesson failed. And I had a light bulb moment and I said, of course the lesson failed. I expected the lesson to fail. That's why you're here. If you knew how to do this, you wouldn't be needing to take this class. I expect you to fail. And then my job is to pick you up, dust you off and send you off to do better next time. And their eyes got really big because once again, they've come up through this assessment based education system where it's black and white, where if you fail, it's the worst thing you can do. Where if you fail, it is, it's pinned upon you for the rest of your life that it's a bad omen for the school, for the program, for... No. This is how we learn. And our job is to make that failure as valuable as possible as they move forward. So it's important to remember that.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
Yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about?
MATT WEBSTER:
I just think it's really interesting. Uh, and you and I talked about this and, and teachers teachers may understand this or they may not understand this depending on how long they've been in the field. But, uh, you and I were earlier and I consider you to be one of my educational children. And our students are our students for all time. Our students will always be our students no matter how old they get, no matter how old we get, they'll call you Mr Chrismon. They'll call me Mr. Webster or Professor Webster, whatever the case may be. And they will always be our students. And then when we're lucky enough that our students go into education and they have students, we get educational grandchildren. And I love the idea that what I've learned, I've been able to pass down, but even moreso what I've learned from Susie Rudisill, I get to honor her in what I do. And for as much as I'm proud of her, she's proud of me. And I'm proud of you for what you've done. And I'm proud to see the work that you're doing and I know that you're proud of me and that's great. But as my student, I get to be proud of you for all time and I know you feel the same way about your students and it's really neat to see that link go from generation to generation and really only teachers get to have that special kind of bond.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
You're right. You're, you're absolutely right. Well, Matt, thank you so much for talking with me. It's always good to chat with you and, and uh, I appreciate all that you are doing all over the place still and uh, still teaching and encouraging teachers and students all over. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for what you've done for me. And again, I appreciate you being here to talk with me today.
MATT WEBSTER:
I'm so happy to have the chance to chat with you. Have fun with this.
JIMMY CHRISMON:
I always love talking with Matt Webster. I love sitting with him. I love having conversations with him and this, this time was no different. Um, I remember when he and I were, we met for a beer to talk about, uh, things that, um, I, I should expect on my interview at ISU and how all those years later he was still mentoring me. He was still my teacher and he was still, um, just those words of wisdom that I always needed. So I hope that you got as much out of the interview as I did. I know, um, his words are great, great things for me to think back on. And uh, it's nice to know that after all these years, he's still consistent with the message that he's telling students and that he's still making a difference in young people's lives. So Matt, thank you for joining me. Thank you for again all you have done for me. All you've done for the hundreds and thousands of high school students, young kids, theatre teachers, theatre education students, and just theatre artists all over and that your words and your teaching have gone on to be passed down, like you said through your educational grandchildren. Thank you for joining me on this episode. We do have one more episode. Again, it's the pride episode. I do hope that you will check that out next week. Thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing. Um, if you are not subscribed the show, please go on any of your podcast providers and do so. You can find us on THE Talks and Apple Podcasts on iTunes, Google Podcasts on Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, Anypod, Tunein, Youtube. Wherever your podcasts are found. We are there. So go on, subscribe to us, listen to the shows, rate us, give us those stars, review us. Um, let people know your experience with the show as well as sharing it with those theatre teachers and theatre students who you think could get benefit from what I'm doing here. Contact me at email on thedtalkspodcast@gmail.com. You can find us on Twitter @theatreedtalks. On Tumblr THEDtalks.tumbler.com. You can find us on Facebook at THED Talks, Instagram THEDtalkspodcast, and of course our website, www.thedtalks.com where you can find the archives of all of our shows so far, as well as all the resource lists from each of the teachers so that you have a quick convenient way to click and go right to those things. Thank you, Joel Hamlin and Joshua's Shusterman for the use of your original song Magnetize for the show. I'm very grateful to you guys and uh, thank you. Thank you for all that you do for your students. Thank you for tuning in and, uh, I hope you have a wonderful rest of this week, rest of the summer, and do check out that final episode next week. Thanks for joining me. Talk to you soon.
